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Author Topic: Catalog Help for an Aperture Refugee?  (Read 5686 times)

Bob Rockefeller

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Catalog Help for an Aperture Refugee?
« on: July 27, 2014, 10:07:40 am »

I've used Aperture since version 1 and Lightroom on and off since version 3. Aperture has been my main choice, but I know Lightroom reasonably well. With the end of Aperture in sight, I'm moving to Lightroom, at least until Capture One Pro can get its cataloging features working well.

In Aperture, I'm used to importing a bunch of images into a Project. Within that Project, I'd work along to create Albums containing subsets of the images in the project, some of them perhaps Smart Albums. If necessary, the Project would also contain a Photo Book, a Light Table and/or a Slideshow. This was nice as everything was contained both visually and logically within the Project.

Working in Lightroom in the same general way seems to cause me to do some things twice. I import a bunch of images into a Folder. Then I create a Collection Set with the same name as the Folder to work somewhat like an Aperture Project. Within that Collection Set I create some Collections, perhaps some Smart Collections. But I can't create any Photo Books there (I don't think). Nor can I create a Slideshow. But I can create Collections that will be used by a Photo Book or a Slideshow, so I do if I need those.

I end up with a parallel structure of Folders and Collection Sets. The Collection Sets are available in modules other than the Library, but the Folders are not. If I want to delete an image, I go to the Folder. If I just want to adjust one, I do that from a Collection within the Collection Set. A collection set can't hold images (I don't think).

For example, I might have a Folder named Mexico and in that sub-folders named Cozumel, Cancun, and Isla Mujeres. So I'd then have a Collection Set named Mexico and in that more Collection Sets named Cozumel, Cancun, and Isla Mujeres. Duplication.

Is this the "best" way to tackle the organization of images for the long term? I don't have a firm grip on why there must be the two: Folders and Collections. So much of what I do seems to require one or the other.

Are there any notable online resources dealing with organizing and working with images in Lightroom? Most of what I find is just an explanation of what each piece does, not so much about how to use them together in a system.

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Bob Rockefeller
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john beardsworth

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Re: Catalog Help for an Aperture Refugee?
« Reply #1 on: July 27, 2014, 10:55:38 am »

Well, Bob, there's Peter Krogh's eBooks. I think they'd help you, though they are designed for Lightroom's principles and not to help "translate" from Aperture concepts.

I think it's helpful if you can try to remember that Folders hasn't got a real equivalent in Aperture. You don't see the actual physical location of files in Aperture's UI, and the nearest you get is the Reorganise Masters dialog. While that dialog is really for a specialist purpose, you use it to manage the physical location of files and not their organisation (in the sense of projects or categorising your pictures). Similarly in Lightroom terms Folders is all about physical location and safekeeping - not project organisation or categorisation.

So:
  • Folders = (approx) Reorganise Masters
  • Collection Sets + Collections = Projects, Albums, Books, Slideshows etc

I think the Collection Set / Collection split is uncomfortable. At one time it was possible for a collection to contain other collections, as well as photos, and you didn't really need the set concept. I thought this worked well, but for some reason things ossified into sets which can contain collections but not photos, and collections which can only contain photos AND saved books/saved slideshows/saved web galleries/ saved prints.

That last bit is worth emphasizing as it's relatively new, more Aperture-like, and I think relevant to your questions. Previously a collection might record book properties as well as slideshow properties (so books and slideshows were "implicit" properties rather than "explicit" UI objects like Aperture books), while since Lr4 these "output collections" are collections in their own right but with the difference that they can be inside another collection. While that sounds complicated, I know you can take a bit more conceptual stuff and think it's worth giving you the background! The important thing is that it allows a more natural organisation like you had in Aperture, so a collection called "2014 vacation" might contain photos and a book you made about the road trip and a slideshow about the time near the beach.

Does that move you forward?

John
« Last Edit: July 27, 2014, 11:05:14 am by john beardsworth »
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Steve House

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Re: Catalog Help for an Aperture Refugee?
« Reply #2 on: July 27, 2014, 11:15:34 am »

The way I think of it is that Folders are real physical locations where the actual files are stored while Collections are virtual 'buckets' that refer to files by some common attribute or for some particular purpose.  In that respect I see Collections as a conceptual extension of keywords but more ephemeral.  As an example, my folders are organized by exposure date.  I have made several trips to Germany so the files are in folders by the shooting date during each trip.  The keywords assigned to them include the keyword "Germany."  I also have made several trips to New Mexico and those files are similarly organized by date and include the keyword "New Mexico". I might be working on a series of prints about rivers.  Some of the German images are of the Rhine while some of the New Mexico images are of the Rio Grande.  To make it easy to reference both sets of files in what is functionally one single location I create a Collection for the project and call it "Beautiful Rivers" and add both the Rhine and the Rio Grande images to it.
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Bob Rockefeller

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Re: Catalog Help for an Aperture Refugee?
« Reply #3 on: July 27, 2014, 11:50:33 am »

So you guys do basically have two organizational systems. One is the physical file locations in Folders. And the other is the virtual file groups in Collections.

That says I'm not too far off base with what I'm doing. And I don't see much problem there other than the awkward nature of deleting a file from a Collection if you want it deleted from the Folder (the physical file on the storage device) as well and the need to create the two somewhat parallel systems. Is there a simpler way to do that other than figuring out where the file is in the Folder structure and deleting it from there? I guess the Go To Folder In Library command it it?
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Bob Rockefeller
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john beardsworth

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Re: Catalog Help for an Aperture Refugee?
« Reply #4 on: July 27, 2014, 12:24:55 pm »

You can always right click an image and Go To Folder in Library, but I shouldn't tell you this - Option + Cmd + Shift + Delete. This "shortcut" deletes the photos from inside a collection, but there's no warning dialog so it is slightly dangerous.

You had two organisation systems too, your vaults and your projects/albums etc, but mine are not at all parallel. My folders are essentially date-based and have no other form of categorisation, while my collections are (coincidentally!) quite Aperture-like as shown here. In fact I know of one guy who has taken it to an extreme and hidden his folders panel.
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Bob Rockefeller

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Re: Catalog Help for an Aperture Refugee?
« Reply #5 on: July 27, 2014, 01:26:57 pm »

You can always right click an image and Go To Folder in Library, but I shouldn't tell you this - Option + Cmd + Shift + Delete. This "shortcut" deletes the photos from inside a collection, but there's no warning dialog so it is slightly dangerous.

You had two organisation systems too, your vaults and your projects/albums etc, but mine are not at all parallel. My folders are essentially date-based and have no other form of categorisation, while my collections are (coincidentally!) quite Aperture-like as shown here. In fact I know of one guy who has taken it to an extreme and hidden his folders panel.

I knew about "splat-delete," but it's just too ugly to actually use! :)

My Aperture vaults weren't a part of the organization; they're just a convenient backup solution that packs the images and database information together into a single "file." I see their value, but their function is easy to replicate in Lightroom with Time Machine backups of the catalog and the images.

Your article with the books shown as collections is new to me. And I like them; the "secret" is in the right-click Create Book... menu item and the Create Saved Book button commands! That reduces some of the confusion/pain. Thanks!
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Bob Rockefeller
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Re: Catalog Help for an Aperture Refugee?
« Reply #6 on: July 27, 2014, 07:08:26 pm »

It looks like Smart Collections cannot be synced with Lightroom Mobile, only normal Collections. True?
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Bob Rockefeller
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luxborealis

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Re: Catalog Help for an Aperture Refugee?
« Reply #7 on: July 27, 2014, 07:22:05 pm »

Bob,
I'm not an Aperture user so have no axe to grind either way. I am, though, surprised that you are "jumping ship" so quickly from a product that is still perfectly functional and will be for sometime. I know the writing's on the wall for Aperture, but you may find it perfectly adequate until C1 brings in catalogues OR until we see what the new Photos is all about (or even the 2nd or 3rd iteration of Photos - when Apple realizes their mistake and brings back more of the pro features).
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Bob Rockefeller

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Re: Catalog Help for an Aperture Refugee?
« Reply #8 on: July 27, 2014, 07:36:58 pm »

Bob,
I'm not an Aperture user so have no axe to grind either way. I am, though, surprised that you are "jumping ship" so quickly from a product that is still perfectly functional and will be for sometime. I know the writing's on the wall for Aperture, but you may find it perfectly adequate until C1 brings in catalogues OR until we see what the new Photos is all about (or even the 2nd or 3rd iteration of Photos - when Apple realizes their mistake and brings back more of the pro features).

No, I suppose I don't HAVE to switch away from Aperture. But Apple's behavour with Aperture's development (little progress beyond new camera support for years and then discontinuing development without any formal announcement or guidance for serious photographers) has shaken my trust in them for the "pro" photography market. So, rather than continue to invest time in organization, image adjustments and metadata addition that may be wasted when Aperture is dead, I thought I should get on a platform that has a clearer future.

Perhaps Photos, and its possible plug-ins, will be come a "Lightroom Killer." Perhaps it will just be a nicer iPhoto with cloud and iOS integration. Often Apple aims for the 80% solution for 80% of users.

If Photos does turn out to be a powerful pro application (in version 1, or 1.5, or 2, or whenever) I may feel bad about jumping ship. And I might even choose to return to Apple's software offerings. But much will have to happen between now and then.
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Bob Rockefeller
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Re: Catalog Help for an Aperture Refugee?
« Reply #9 on: July 28, 2014, 01:29:22 am »

I too am considering my options...it seems I am "trailing" Bob by about a week as I often discover something or come to similar conclusions right after he does.

However my trust in Apple hasn't really been shaken (just stirred, thank you very much), and I have decided I'm not leaving Aperture until they pry it from my cold dead hands. The discussion above about management in LR just confirms what I "rediscovered" recently when trying on LR again: that LR is definitely adequate but is in no way better or somehow easier to understand because "the physical files" are exposed. Aperture may not have all the features I want, but it absolutely nails DAM (IMO)...and that's a really tough thing to give up, especially since it will still run on Mavericks and Yosemite for the foreseeable future.

This whole process of taking deep dives into other products has definitely opened my eyes (there is lots of great RAW software out there, each with their own strengths and weaknesses) but has also reconfirmed that even today, without all the latest lens profiles and gradient masks and better noise reduction tools, Aperture is still a great tool that can help you render (and organize!) great looking images. In other words, they got it right with Aperture...and this leads me to believe they will get it (at least mostly) right again (eventually) with Photos.

In between now and then, I'll be using the best DAM software available (yuk yuk), which can still hold it's own with image quality, and will be firing up C1 or RawTherapee on those occasions when I need something Aperture doesn't have or isn't too good at. I'll just render a TIF in those other tools, import, and make a Stack with the original. Pretty painless if you ask me.

It's taken me about a month to come to this conclusion, and it's the right decision for me.  YMMV ;)

Pp

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Dan Glynhampton

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Re: Catalog Help for an Aperture Refugee?
« Reply #10 on: July 28, 2014, 02:48:38 am »

It looks like Smart Collections cannot be synced with Lightroom Mobile, only normal Collections. True?


Yes Bob, that's correct.  Hopefully a future update to Lightroom and Lightroom Mobile will allow inclusion of smart collections.

Dan
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john beardsworth

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Re: Catalog Help for an Aperture Refugee?
« Reply #11 on: July 28, 2014, 03:45:57 am »

that LR is ... somehow easier to understand because "the physical files" are exposed.

I don't think it makes it easier or harder, but it's a proper level of control. On the other hand, it encourages some users to try categorising their pictures with folders rather than using collections and metadata properly. But if you don't like it, just hide the Folders panel (if you really want to!).

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Bob Rockefeller

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Re: Catalog Help for an Aperture Refugee?
« Reply #12 on: July 28, 2014, 04:19:23 am »

I don't think it makes it easier or harder, but it's a proper level of control. On the other hand, it encourages some users to try categorising their pictures with folders rather than using collections and metadata properly. But if you don't like it, just hide the Folders panel (if you really want to!).

If you actually go so far as to hide the Folder pane, how do you get to the images to give them the metadata they need to sort themselves into a Collections hierarchy? Just use the recent import Collection and don't import more until the metadata is done?
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Bob Rockefeller
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Re: Catalog Help for an Aperture Refugee?
« Reply #13 on: July 28, 2014, 04:58:48 am »

Bob, I'm not seriously suggesting hiding Folders. I think it's a bizarre idea, with no advantages, but I happen to know of a couple of guys who do so.

I agree that the recent import collection is pretty useless if you have more than one card to import, but there are plenty of ways to find newly-imported pictures. You could use All Photographs and sort by Added Order, or filter on the date using the Library Filter Panel, or set up a smart collection looking for images shot in the last x days or missing certain metadata.
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Bob Rockefeller

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Re: Catalog Help for an Aperture Refugee?
« Reply #14 on: July 28, 2014, 05:31:42 am »

I've been importing to a folder named Import. Once I've culled, entered metadata and maybe made a few adjustments, I move them to their place in a folder system arranged by location.

Interestingly, Aperture arranges all its managed images inside its library package in a folder system arranged by date with the year as the top level. Probably just like you're doing with your folders. From that point, Aperture's virtual containers take over, much like Lightroom's collections.

Now I need to get Peter's book on DAM with Lightroom, I guess.
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Bob Rockefeller
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CatOne

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Re: Catalog Help for an Aperture Refugee?
« Reply #15 on: July 28, 2014, 05:36:26 pm »

I don't think it makes it easier or harder, but it's a proper level of control. On the other hand, it encourages some users to try categorising their pictures with folders rather than using collections and metadata properly. But if you don't like it, just hide the Folders panel (if you really want to!).


How do you find pictures that are not in a collection if you do this?
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john beardsworth

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Re: Catalog Help for an Aperture Refugee?
« Reply #16 on: July 29, 2014, 03:50:03 am »

It's a bit of a non-problem because I really don't advise hiding Folders. But if you did do so, you can create a smart collection to find pictures that aren't in a collection.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2014, 04:42:08 am by john beardsworth »
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jjj

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Re: Catalog Help for an Aperture Refugee?
« Reply #17 on: July 29, 2014, 09:18:10 am »

So you guys do basically have two organizational systems. One is the physical file locations in Folders. And the other is the virtual file groups in Collections.
No more than Aperture does. Which can also reference files directly. The different names for the 'containers' of your pics is what confuses people. Don't think of it as two organisational systems but one set of photos with several ways of finding what you need, sometimes folders are easier to use, sometimes collections are, sometimes filtering is the best way.
I have a single LR catalogue in whatever location I want with images scattered across many different hard drives in their various folders. I can have a collection in LR with images from any, some or all of these locations. Catalogue gets backed up regularly.

In LR the folders are simply where files literally are on your HDs, in the folders that other software can see and use if need be. This is a perfectly useful way to access your images, albeit with some limitations. I use a Year/Month/Date-description system [see screengrab below], everything [work+personal] gets imported to LR by date and then I add a description to date. They are named the same way e.g. 2014-07-29 Jane's Portrait 001.CR2 On a busy day I may have several folders per day. This as the Aperture debacle has demonstrated is a useful starting point as it is a universal way of organising your images being recognised by different OSs and programmes - it is completely software agnostic. I can even find stuff by looking through my folders in Finder or Explorer should I want to.
To these shots you can add keywords for other types of organising such as in collections or any other form of metadata organising in any programme.

Collections in LR are made up of two kinds, smart and dumb. As well as collection sets, which are simply groups of collections. Images can be in as many collections as you want as they are all virtual.
Dumb Collections are simply Collections you drag images into or delete from. They can be heirachical, so you can nest them inside each other.
Smart Collections are where you set up rules so images get added automatically by whatever criteria you want. E.g. all models from Jamaica with blond hair [a small collection!], shots of your dog having a walk that are 3 stars + above, all shots of your family, all pictures taken in France that are not is Paris and so on.

The thing with using folders is that your images have to physically be somewhere, so you may as well make it organised, it takes next to no effort [unlike keywording, which is painfully hard work to be honest] and it will complement metadata organising very well. And for a lot of pics quite frankly that may be all the organising they need. In fact I can search for say bees in say July using the text filter on all the July photos and despite the fact I have not added any keywords or renamed the files the 3 images in the folder marked Lou's bees appear. They will also appear if I search entire photo collection along with other bee photos. I can even make a smart collection to find things inside folders which will save LR have to trawl database [see second screenshot]. Basically date-description folders give you even more flexibility and power if you like meta-data organisation and for less effort.
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jjj

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Re: Catalog Help for an Aperture Refugee?
« Reply #18 on: July 29, 2014, 09:24:48 am »

It's a bit of a non-problem because I really don't advise hiding Folders. But if you did do so, you can create a smart collection to find pictures that aren't in a collection.
Why even bother hiding them? Just don't show it, either by enabling 'solo mode' or by closing that section. See screenshot below.
Not utilising folders is simply limiting your options and probably making more work for yourself.
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john beardsworth

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Re: Catalog Help for an Aperture Refugee?
« Reply #19 on: July 29, 2014, 10:01:06 am »

Why even bother hiding them? Just don't show it, either by enabling 'solo mode' or by closing that section. See screenshot below.
Not utilising folders is simply limiting your options and probably making more work for yourself.

Don't fxxxing ask me! ;) I simply said I know two people who do, one for "more Aperture-like organisation". Nowt so queer as folk!
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