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Author Topic: Moving into medium format digital...  (Read 3568 times)

leelopez

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Moving into medium format digital...
« on: July 25, 2014, 01:02:11 pm »

Hello everyone.

My name is Lee Lopez and I'm going to be making the jump into medium format. At this point in time I've shot on the Hassy H5D 40. BUT, I keep hearing nothing but amazing things about the Phase One and Mamiya lines. My options are going to be an H5D 40, Phase One IQ140, or Leaf Credo 40.

Can someone give some opinions on the three cameras? I've googled until my eyes have bled out, so I figured that I would ask the experts.

Thanks,
Lee
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Joe Towner

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Re: Moving into medium format digital...
« Reply #1 on: July 25, 2014, 01:07:09 pm »

Find your local dealer, setup a test shoot and give it a spin.  And scroll down through all the similar threads, there are lots of folks with different opinions.  You can even do the Hasselblad body and lenses with the Phase/Lea backs.

Barring that, tell us more about what you shoot and how you shoot it currently.  What is pushing your need for MFD?

-Joe
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leelopez

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Re: Moving into medium format digital...
« Reply #2 on: July 25, 2014, 01:17:13 pm »

Joe,

I'm located in New Orleans. There are no local dealers in my area, so taking a spin is out of the question. I shoot fashion/commercial portraiture.
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Doug Peterson

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Re: Moving into medium format digital...
« Reply #3 on: July 25, 2014, 02:10:25 pm »

A spin from New Orleans isn't only not out of the question; it's quite easy.

We have a remote demo center for screen/audio/video/raw-file sharing, and a rental program where you can count the cost of rental toward purchase.

(note my bias - we sell Phase One and Leaf, but not Hasselbad)

I'll write about some advantages of the Phase/Credo option here momentarily, hopefully someone will pitch in the Hassy advantages as well - there are no bad options, just the options that best fit your needs/style/budget...

douglevy

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Re: Moving into medium format digital...
« Reply #4 on: July 25, 2014, 02:18:16 pm »

As a newbie to MFD myself (H1, Credo 40, <6 mo ago), I've pieced together a 35/80/120mm kit, buying lenses used and the Credo new from Capture Integration. You can't go wrong with DT or CI (but as Doug notes, only CI sells Hassy). To me the advantages of the H lens lineup and phenomenal ergonomics of the camera were the deciders, but you really have to try them both extensively (as in, shoot how you shoot, not in a controlled environment) to decide.

Doug Peterson

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Re: Moving into medium format digital...
« Reply #5 on: July 25, 2014, 02:19:36 pm »

Interface
Very brief summary of advantages for the Phase/Leaf digital back option:
- touch screen, retina-resolution LCD withe excellent color/brightness
- highly sophisticated, but very easy to use review system (largely due to intuitive nature of touchscreens and a straightforward UI) including...
---- exposure warning, with customizable level, which does not interrupt your view of the main image
---- 2-axis bubble level with on-board calibration, numerical or GUI readout, ability to view full screen or as a side-bar item (on IQ this also is embedded in the metadata for auto-perspective correction and auto horizon correction in Capture One)
---- customizable grid/guide system including drag-able guides
---- focus mask (IQ only) for at-a-glance evaluation of focus
---- double tap to zoom to immediately jump to 100%, exactly where you want to check, without further scrolling or button pushing
- review of the last 10 images possible when tethered, including zooming to 100%, focus mask, and exposure warning

Connectivity
- Uses Capture One, an industry standard for both image quality and tethered feature set
- USB3 and FW800 tethering

Color/Tone
- This will be highly subjective but definitely worth your evaluation. The three backs will produce different color and different tonal renderings. The difference between the Credo and IQ will be more subtle, than the difference between those two backs as the Hassy. The difference between the Hassy rendering and Credo/IQ rendering isn't down to just one thing; they are built around different sensors (Dalsa vs. Kodak), different internal components, different IR and CFA, and have different color profiles. There won't be any one right or wrong way to feel about these differences but in general (again, noting my inherent bias) you'll find more discussion of Dalsa in terms of a more subtle tonal transitions, smoother color, organic rendering and pleasant skintone and more discussion of Kodak as being more scientific, precise, and detailed in tonal transitions. The grain/noise pattern is also different; I feel Dalsa provides a more stochastic and gaussian spread of luminance noise, but it also has more single-pixel noise (fortunately handled very well in C1). It's also impossible to fully isolate the effect of any one part of the system (the sensor) since everything before and after it alters the outcome of the image, so these comments are coming from customers as well as my own shooting which includes portraits, fashion, weddings, and nude with both Kodak-based and Dalsa-based Phase systems and Dalsa-based Leaf systems. Ideally you should do your own shooting with each system; if impractical you get and examine raw files from each system - we have a catalog of several thousand raw files from nearly every combination of lens, sensor, and genre that we can pull from for clients working with us.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2014, 02:59:15 pm by Doug Peterson »
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Doug Peterson

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Re: Moving into medium format digital...
« Reply #6 on: July 25, 2014, 02:32:50 pm »

You also need to pick the platform. There are three autofocus options: Hassy H, Contax, and Phase/Mamiya.

Phase/Credo backs come in flavors for any of those three. Hassy H Backs only come in one flavor: H.

You may prefer the look, feel, or overall use of one or the other. That's something only you can say. But there are some non-personal-preference differences:

Hassy H:
- Leaf Shutter only: meaning every shutter speed syncs with flash, but maximum shutter speed is 1/800th.
- True Focus: an interesting focusing system option which allows the camera to offset focus based on recomposition. Especially effective when shooting wider lenses wide open close to a subject; proportionally less important as you get to longer lenses where the recomposition-effect is smaller.
- AF assist light is quite bright (I find this annoying)
- Option for micro-second delay of the shutter after mirror-motion which can help with slow-shutter handheld speed shooting. Cool feature I wish was on the Phase platform!

Phase/Mamiya:
- Focal Plane or Leaf Shutter: syncs with flash up to 1/1600th, and has the option to use focal plane for up to 1/4000th. Also the availability of a focal plane shutter means you can adapt a lot more types of lenses to the body using mechanical adapters (since the body's shutter does the heavy lifting).
- Availability of a vertical grip for extended vertical shooting. This includes a built-in flash transmitter for Profoto Air receivers, which syncs at the full 1/1600th. There is no vertical grip for the H platform.

The lenses are a whole nother area of discussion, and I'm out of time, so I'll just say both have some stunning lenses, and some only-ok lenses.

With Phase backs you also have the option to purchase a VA warranty which includes a free change in platforms during the 5-year length of the warranty. So if for instance you started on Contax and wanted to switch to Hassy H, or started on Hassy H and wanted to switch to Phase etc you'd be able to change the back at no cost (you'd still need to sell or trade your body/lenses, but at least the most expensive part of the system would be taken care of automatically at no cost).
« Last Edit: July 25, 2014, 02:48:29 pm by Doug Peterson »
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eronald

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Re: Moving into medium format digital...
« Reply #7 on: July 25, 2014, 03:28:33 pm »

Hello everyone.

My name is Lee Lopez and I'm going to be making the jump into medium format. At this point in time I've shot on the Hassy H5D 40. BUT, I keep hearing nothing but amazing things about the Phase One and Mamiya lines. My options are going to be an H5D 40, Phase One IQ140, or Leaf Credo 40.

Can someone give some opinions on the three cameras? I've googled until my eyes have bled out, so I figured that I would ask the experts.

Thanks,
Lee

At this point, I believe you might also consider the Pentax 645Z which is arguably the most modern MF camera on the market at a bargain price of around $10K, competing with Phase and Hassy models at 3x the price.

Edmund
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DanielStone

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Re: Moving into medium format digital...
« Reply #8 on: July 25, 2014, 10:47:22 pm »

Doug forgot one(and a CURRENTLY SOLD AND DISTRIBTUED WORLDWIDE) system on the "Autofocus MFD SLR list"

Rolleiflex/DHW and their Hy6 Mod2

Had the brief chance to handle one recently. OMG, if there was one word I had to use to describe it in-hand, and it'd be "butter". Simply that, smooth, very well refined and TBH, I'd give it a hard look.

However, you'll be limited to Leaf and Sinar digital backs for this system. Aptus II/IIR and Credo backs, and Sinar's various models.

HUGE lens lineup, and very modern. Not cheap, but if you're looking for a solid system, I'd give it a good look.

-Dan
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Doug Peterson

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Re: Moving into medium format digital...
« Reply #9 on: July 25, 2014, 11:36:30 pm »

Doug forgot one(and a CURRENTLY SOLD AND DISTRIBTUED WORLDWIDE) system on the "Autofocus MFD SLR list"

Rolleiflex/DHW and their Hy6 Mod2

-Dan

You're right I did and shame on me!

It's definitely worth a look.

DanielStone

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Re: Moving into medium format digital...
« Reply #10 on: July 26, 2014, 03:17:47 am »

You're right I did and shame on me!

It's definitely worth a look.

No "shame" implied, just thought I'd add it to your list :)

-Dan
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Moving into medium format digital...
« Reply #11 on: July 26, 2014, 03:35:42 am »

My name is Lee Lopez and I'm going to be making the jump into medium format.

Perhaps you can share the reasons why you are considering medium format?

What problem/shortcoming are you trying to fix with your current equipment?

I would think that these information will help the team guide you towards the best option.

Cheers,
Bernard

MrSmith

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Re: Moving into medium format digital...
« Reply #12 on: July 26, 2014, 03:55:52 am »

Doug forgot one(and a CURRENTLY SOLD AND DISTRIBTUED WORLDWIDE) system on the "Autofocus MFD SLR list"

Rolleiflex/DHW and their Hy6 Mod2



Never seen one in use, on display, for rental, for sale or advertised in the U.K.  Maybe I'm not looking in the right places?
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DanielStone

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Re: Moving into medium format digital...
« Reply #13 on: July 26, 2014, 03:15:15 pm »

Never seen one in use, on display, for rental, for sale or advertised in the U.K.  Maybe I'm not looking in the right places?

IDK about the UK, but according to the DHW website, they might have a dealer in the Netherlands?
http://www.dhw-fototechnik.de/en/authorizeddealers.html
Eric Hiss might know, he's the Rollei rep for the USA now(and probably happy to sell abroad)
http://rolleiflex.us/pages/about-rolleiflex-usa

But I'd agree that it's not the most "vocal" system in terms of getting its name out there(like HB or Phase/Leaf). Maybe they don't have as much free cash to put into mass-marketing campaigns worldwide, or maybe they just prefer word of mouth advertising, like we're talking here? I know that if I was looking to invest into a MFD system, other than a technical cam setup like an Alpa, Cambo, Arca or Linhof, I'd be looking first at the Hy6 for an SLR style system. Ergonomically, I feel it's the best out there, and the range of accessories and wide array of lenses(both MF legacy and modernized Schneider AFD lenses) can really allow for full creative control and possibilities. Again, this is my opinion, my 2nd choice would be the H-series(H4x being top, then an H2/H1 after that), for almost the same reason.

Not to mention, if the OP (ever) intends to try film-based shooting, he can know that this(and the H4x) are fully film-compatible. But again, that's just another point I find relevant. I understand most here aren't interested in shooting film anymore.

-Dan
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Chris Livsey

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Re: Moving into medium format digital...
« Reply #14 on: July 26, 2014, 04:00:16 pm »

The only HY6 I have seen, other than some lenses occasionally from Pear Tree in the UK, have been on the European search on e-bay where that dealer has regular listings. But please not prices are + VAT for European buyers so what at first sight is great deal is later not. that is not the dealers fault BTW.
"Leica Store Lisse, the Netherlands, has been an official Leica/Rollei Dealer for over 20 years."
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JV

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Re: Moving into medium format digital...
« Reply #15 on: July 26, 2014, 05:01:47 pm »

Photokina is probably the best place to see Rolleiflex gear.

DHW is present and the Hy6, the 6008 (still made), the TLRs, etc are all on display.

If I recall correctly 2 years ago Leaf also offered the possibility to shoot a Credo back on the Hy6.
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Joe Towner

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Re: Moving into medium format digital...
« Reply #16 on: July 27, 2014, 12:28:13 am »

Hey Lee,

So you've got LOTS of options.  Start with the AF/MF debate.  Next, what do you already have, both 35mm and any old film MF stuff?  If you're looking for medium format but don't need high resolution, there's a lot of used 20-40mp used setups that can be had quite inexpensively.  Head shots can be done with either option, but are you looking to do catwalk stuff in MF or is it all staged?  Give us a bit of an idea of what your current 35mm gear isn't doing for you.

You have options, but they may not be local to you.  Between NYC and Atlanta you have CI and DT as options - the cost of a trip there to handle the gear is a sound investment.  The DT remote demo is slick, but nothing beats putting the gear in your hands and shooting it.  On a side note, one of the upsides to the Phase system is their POCP training - it's well worth it to get some experience with the Capture One tool that would be central to your workflow if you were to get a Phase/Leaf back.  I wish it supposed my Hasselblad files :(

http://www.phaseone.com/en/Workshops/POCP/POCP-calendar.aspx

All that said, I love my Hassy - she does tricks for me, and while I lust after a Phase back, there are a few lenses for the Hassy that I really love - the 35-90 is a be all end all walk around lens.  If I had the cash I'd do a Phase back with Hassy lenses.  In addition to the mirror delay, the Mirror Up button had better be on the next DF body - having a single button for mirror lock up and to bust out as many shots as you want is great.  Everything in this arena is a personal preference, spend the time handling it, and maybe someone else here is in the NOLA area and can meet up with you locally.

-Joe
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EricWHiss

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Re: Moving into medium format digital...
« Reply #17 on: July 27, 2014, 01:51:56 am »

>Eric Hiss might know, he's the Rollei rep for the USA now(and probably happy to sell abroad)

Thanks Daniel for the mention.  I know it was a goal of DHW to open up a few more dealerships - I would not be surprised if a UK dealer might open up fairly soon.   ;)     However, I'm always happy to answer questions about the cameras and have the user manuals, and brochures for free download off my site.

For US customers I do have a demo Hy6 camera kit available (with film back and 80mm AFD lens).   I will also be at Photokina this year with DHW as well as PhotoPlus in NYC the month after.
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JV

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Re: Moving into medium format digital...
« Reply #18 on: July 27, 2014, 07:57:25 am »

I will also be at Photokina this year with DHW as well as PhotoPlus in NYC the month after.

Do you happen to know whether DHW has anything new up their sleeve for Photokina?  Thanks, Joris.
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eronald

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Re: Moving into medium format digital...
« Reply #19 on: July 27, 2014, 08:49:37 am »

BTW, if someone forgot to mention it, there is the Leica S which is a nice MF camera with superb lenses, and can do AF with Contax and Hasselblad lenses too with an adapter.

I sometimes think there are now as many camera models out there as active forum members.

Edmund
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