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Author Topic: digitizing medium format film wih nikon d800 and micro lenses  (Read 11341 times)

bambanx

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Hello guys i have a 120mm negatives i want to digitize, i dont like scanners, i see in a few webs are using dslr's for that, my digital camera is a nikon d800 i have a 105 micro the last one,

http://www.nikonusa.com/en/Nikon-Products/Product/Camera-Lenses/AF-S-VR-Micro-Nikkor-105mm-f%252F2.8G-IF-ED.html

It have a 62mm ring.

1- i saw in the web a lot of slide/negatives copier but i am not sure which one can works with my setup (d800 and 105 micro ) can u recommend me one please or tell which one can works for test?

2- For people who have 105 micro and other macro lenses  (nikon fx) and tested digitizing negatives with this method, which macro lens is better for this job?



Thanks very much.

PD: sorry for my poor english :)
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Chris Livsey

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Re: digitizing medium format film wih nikon d800 and micro lenses
« Reply #1 on: July 15, 2014, 02:47:49 am »

When colour slides/transparencies were the normal output a series of dedicated copiers of high quality were made by Bowens (Illumitran). These use variable output flash for illumination which is one problem solved, attaching the lens and camera in parallel to the film was another solved. They are seen regularly on the auction sites, at least in the UK and I assume elsewhere, as they were very popular and are not now expensive.
http://www.3dimensionphoto.com/images/model3.pdf
They also allow bellows focus so your lens choice is expanded to those designed specifically for this purpose. A number of camera makers made hand held or tripod mounted variants requiring your own illumination source which you have seen most of these were for 35mm not 120. (Hasselblad made a 120 obviously). They were intended for reversal not negatives so require cutting of the negative strips and mounting in some way, assuming they are in strips, and mounting flat is a problem which is obviously greater with 120 than 35mm. You can use a light table and glass which solves that problem, like the Illumitran, but requires careful setting of the camera in parallel and illumination may not be even enough for critical work. The immediate feedback from digital has made the evaluation of the lighting and white balance much easier though.
Cheap and cheerful for, a low quality output, would be to to tape to a glass window and shoot using daylight ideally with a diffuser behind.

An issue the duplicators don't solve is dust which, for colour work, a dedicated scanner using an IR channel can help a great deal.

You don't say what your scanner dislike is but the post processing of your output files will still be required especially of colour negatives where the masks can be a problem, don't underestimate the time involved depending on your post skills and patience the shooting part can be the easy bit.

Depending on the numbers involved and output quality required it may be worthwhile sending the work out.
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: digitizing medium format film wih nikon d800 and micro lenses
« Reply #2 on: July 15, 2014, 03:00:42 am »

Hi,

I would suggest that good results are possible, but making a good setup is not easy. Three issues:

- alignment of slide and film
- shielding light sources and feflections
- flatness of film

Has all of this been handled properly, very good results are possible.

Best regards
Erik


Hello guys i have a 120mm negatives i want to digitize, i dont like scanners, i see in a few webs are using dslr's for that, my digital camera is a nikon d800 i have a 105 micro the last one,

http://www.nikonusa.com/en/Nikon-Products/Product/Camera-Lenses/AF-S-VR-Micro-Nikkor-105mm-f%252F2.8G-IF-ED.html

It have a 62mm ring.

1- i saw in the web a lot of slide/negatives copier but i am not sure which one can works with my setup (d800 and 105 micro ) can u recommend me one please or tell which one can works for test?

2- For people who have 105 micro and other macro lenses  (nikon fx) and tested digitizing negatives with this method, which macro lens is better for this job?



Thanks very much.

PD: sorry for my poor english :)

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bambanx

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Re:
« Reply #3 on: July 15, 2014, 03:43:09 am »

Thanks for the answers, i have speedlights and studio flash for light, im trying to find a good and small solution what about this kind of stuff?
http://m.ebay.com/itm/130836127073?cmd=VIDESC&gxo=true

Thanks
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Chris Livsey

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Re: digitizing medium format film wih nikon d800 and micro lenses
« Reply #4 on: July 15, 2014, 07:21:56 am »

"That" is for mounted 35mm slides.
I understood you were looking at duping 120 negatives. As I said above with this type of device you would need to cut and mount your negatives individually first and the device you link is 35mm only.

You may find it useful to read this thread:

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=47972.0

« Last Edit: July 15, 2014, 07:23:47 am by Chris Livsey »
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Doug Peterson

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Re: digitizing medium format film wih nikon d800 and micro lenses
« Reply #5 on: July 15, 2014, 09:27:17 am »

We provide film-scanning systems based on high-res cameras for many of the most respected Cultural Heritage institutions in the world.

I don't think our system is right for you. It's meant for mass-digitization projects (>100,000 pieces of film) or as an accessory to our RGC180 copy stand. It wouldn't make sense in your use. But having worked on the R+D team and having trained many institutions I can speak with some experience on digitizing film with a photographic camera. Here are some considerations:
- vibration matters, a LOT. If you digitize a 6cm with a D800, 7360 pixels then each pixel will represent 8 microns of film. If the camera vs. film 4 microns during the exposure you'll find the sharpness is meaningfully effected. Even with strobe you'll want to do everything you can to reduce vibration. Mirror up, electronic release, heavy tripod (or preferably camera stand or copy stand), tight tripod mount (ours uses a proprietary four-point-mount which is an inch wide). Our system was built without a mirror, without a focal plane shutter, and with a electronic shutter which is meant for longevity and low vibration rather than maximum speed, but for us flash was not an option as it becomes highly problematic to have an operator exposed to many flashes per minute for an 8 hour shift.
- focus and aperture matter, a LOT. You'll be very challenged vis-a-vis film flatness and aperture selection. Remember that *effective* aperture is different than *marked* aperture when dealing with macro photography. You may select f/8 on the lens, but at macro distances your diffraction will behave as if you are using f/11 or even higher (depending on level of magnification, see my extreme-macro article for the formula and detailed explanation). So you'll need to keep your aperture closer to wide open than usual, and DOF at a wider aperture at macro distances can be razor thin.
- lens sharpness matters, a LOT. Finding a lens which is equally sharp across the frame at the apertures required for non-diffracted capture was not easy for us. We settled on the Schneider 120mm APO Digitar. It allows us to image at f/7 or so and get equally sharp corners at our 60mp or 80mp capture. I don't have experience with that Nikon lens, but if it's possible for you to test it before committing to purchase I'd suggest it. We went through some "legendary" lenses before finding one that worked for us. Granted we are working with some challenging/strict image-performance metrics such as those provided in the FADGI guidelines. But even if you're not being that careful, I'd imagine you want the film grain to be as clearly defined in the corner as in the center, otherwise any large prints will look like when you used to have the enlarger slightly out of alignment.

Our use-case is to replace slow, aging and difficult-to-service drum scanners in an environment where extremely valuable film is being digitized en-masse. So your requirements may not be that strict. I guess the purpose of my post is to:
1) tell you doing this at very high quality is absolutely possible
2) warn you that doing so is more challenging than you might think
3) encourage you to test the gear you're considering if possible before committing to purchase
« Last Edit: July 15, 2014, 09:29:08 am by Doug Peterson »
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soren

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Re: digitizing medium format film wih nikon d800 and micro lenses
« Reply #6 on: July 15, 2014, 03:59:29 pm »

Check this out! Can perhaps give some ideas! Unfortunately not in english, but you can see the tools and technique…

http://www.moderskeppet.se/live/fota-dina-aldre-bilder/
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EricWHiss

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Re: digitizing medium format film wih nikon d800 and micro lenses
« Reply #7 on: July 16, 2014, 05:40:13 am »

I've been doing this for a long time with my MFDB and dedicated macro lenses.  There are all kinds of bellows attachments that you can find on ebay with neg holders or slide holders that you can fit to your DSLR and some of them even have flash mounts on the other side.  There are also older slide duplicator attachments.   I've tried a lot of these.  The drawback is that its a PIA to load slides one by one but otherwise they work pretty well.   I also have the illumitran and these are nicer but do essentially the same thing. The illumitran changes intensity by raising or lowering the flash bulb relative to the negative - not fancy but i guess it works okay. They have trays to hold slides and this is pretty fast to use, but the neg holders are not so fast and don't really hold the negatives flat.   What I do now is put a negative holder from an enlarger onto a light table and mount the camera over it.  You might not have luck with some light tables that have fluorescent tubes unless they have a fast ballast to avoid flickr.   I have a kaiser copy stand with integrated light table with the 40,000Hz ballast.   It's quite fast now to go through a roll of film.  Overall I have been fairly satisfied with this process, however with color slides and negatives getting the right color isn't so easy.  I'm using Color Neg plugin's in photo shop however there are lot's of other ways.  Lenses make a difference with this work. Consider getting a rodenstock apo rodagon or other enlarging lenses which are quite inexpensive compared to a dedicated macro lens. You can buy a cheap m39 adapter and fit it one of the focusing bellows that will mount to your camera.
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bambanx

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Re: digitizing medium format film wih nikon d800 and micro lenses
« Reply #8 on: July 16, 2014, 06:06:31 pm »

Thanks for the reply , i think i will try first with my macro lens, i see the flat of negative is critical , can u recommend me a stuff for put the negative and keep it flat? i have a lot of lights for experiment and a good and solid tripod for put the camera so i think is the only thing i need for now, i was wondering is exist some kind of stuff where i can put the negatives and drag it for shoot the first and then drag and shoot the second without scratch my negative.
Thanks again guys .
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Ken R

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Re: digitizing medium format film wih nikon d800 and micro lenses
« Reply #9 on: July 16, 2014, 06:12:05 pm »

Thanks for the reply , i think i will try first with my macro lens, i see the flat of negative is critical , can u recommend me a stuff for put the negative and keep it flat? i have a lot of lights for experiment and a good and solid tripod for put the camera so i think is the only thing i need for now, i was wondering is exist some kind of stuff where i can put the negatives and drag it for shoot the first and then drag and shoot the second without scratch my negative.
Thanks again guys .

Google is your friend:

http://petapixel.com/2012/12/24/how-to-scan-your-film-using-a-digital-camera-and-macro-lens/

this is not the only way to do it but gives you a general idea and an option of how to do it...
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bambanx

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Re: digitizing medium format film wih nikon d800 and micro lenses
« Reply #10 on: July 16, 2014, 06:17:41 pm »

thanks Ken, for now my only needs is find a good stuff for keep flat the negative and maybe the option to put the without cut the negative on each frame , some like i can drag the film without scratch it and keep shooting .
my english is not good but i do a draw for u guys with my idea, here it is:
http://postimg.org/image/a7neo81yz/

« Last Edit: July 16, 2014, 06:34:29 pm by bambanx »
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EricWHiss

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Re: digitizing medium format film wih nikon d800 and micro lenses
« Reply #11 on: July 17, 2014, 02:10:19 am »

I just use blue painters masking tape to hold down my negatives to the glass when I am not using the negative tray from an old enlarger.  Seems to come off easily without any residue, plus its quite cheap and fast to work with. For sure the negatives held by tape onto the glass are flatter sometimes they are so flat you can get newton rings - something to avoid.  Having film flat in your camera is a good thing, but not as critical when 'scanning" via a DSLR.   You might also try wet mounting which may help sidestep the newton rings as well.

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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: digitizing medium format film wih nikon d800 and micro lenses
« Reply #12 on: July 17, 2014, 09:13:16 am »

Having film flat in your camera is a good thing, but not as critical when 'scanning" via a DSLR.

Eric, that's correct, although the wiggle room is not that large either.
 
Using a D800 to 'scan' a:
  • 56mm high film frame at f/5.6, will give something like 0.82 mm Depth of Field
  • 24mm high film frame at f/5.6, will give something like 0.47 mm Depth of Field
Shooting perfectly perpendicular to the film is therefore very important.

Narrower apertures will start to lose some micro-contrast, so one should probably try to shoot at around f/4 or f/5.6 for the best results.

The Nikon Micro lenses, like similar offerings from other brands, are supposed to have a relatively flat field of focus, but do check for corner unsharpness! Otherwise, shoot at a slightly reduced magnification factor for more wiggle room.

Cheers,
Bart
« Last Edit: July 17, 2014, 09:21:04 am by BartvanderWolf »
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SZRitter

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Re: digitizing medium format film wih nikon d800 and micro lenses
« Reply #13 on: July 18, 2014, 11:27:27 am »

I just use blue painters masking tape to hold down my negatives to the glass when I am not using the negative tray from an old enlarger.  Seems to come off easily without any residue, plus its quite cheap and fast to work with. For sure the negatives held by tape onto the glass are flatter sometimes they are so flat you can get newton rings - something to avoid.  Having film flat in your camera is a good thing, but not as critical when 'scanning" via a DSLR.   You might also try wet mounting which may help sidestep the newton rings as well.



I started using blue painters tape, but since moved to an old enlarger carrier. I currently dupe 6x6 using an olympus DSLR and Nikkor 55mm Micro 3.5 (Pre-AI). Results are as good or better than a flatbed, minus one issue, which is I think the posts from the carrier are throwing an internal reflection through the film. I don't use glass for anything, and have not had issues (shooting at f5.6) with sharpness.
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: digitizing medium format film wih nikon d800 and micro lenses
« Reply #14 on: July 18, 2014, 02:01:23 pm »

Hi,

The impression I had from my experiments with using macro lens on DSLR for "scanning" Velvia images I have essentilly found that:

- Very good tonal rendition is possible
- A modern DSLR can handle the luminance range of a Velvia slide better than an "upper middle class" CCD film scanner
- Sharpness/Resolution is OK if slide is kept flat and parallel
- All light leaks and reflections need to be shielded

Using an MFD back may offer some advantage is some areas, mostly in resolution.

I have a decent quality CCD film-scanner, so I found that I stay with the CCD scanner., right now. I would expect that good, and may be even superior results are possible by DSLR/MFD, but that needs a very optimal setup.

Best regards
Erik
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Chris Barrett

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Re: digitizing medium format film wih nikon d800 and micro lenses
« Reply #15 on: July 18, 2014, 04:48:19 pm »

I dunno, Man...  I'd get a decent scanner and save myself the headaches...

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Doug Peterson

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Re: digitizing medium format film wih nikon d800 and micro lenses
« Reply #16 on: July 18, 2014, 05:23:20 pm »

I dunno, Man...  I'd get a decent scanner and save myself the headaches...

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Depends entirely on the volume of slides you'll be scanning.

For one or two slides the hassle of a camera-capture system are quite high. For a few thousand (or in the case of our institutional clients, few million) slides it is orders of magnitude faster to do it via camera-capture.

EricWHiss

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Re: digitizing medium format film wih nikon d800 and micro lenses
« Reply #17 on: July 19, 2014, 02:12:47 pm »

Doug's right.  I did something like 1500 slides in one day with the MFDB setup over my Illumitran.  With that setup, I used my Hy6 and AFi-ii 12 digital back, but for important negs, I do sometimes also use my CF 528 in micro step mode which takes much longer but still not as long a scanner.

Bart's point about lenses and DOF is also true.  With DSLR's you do have the advantage of focal plane shutters so you can fit almost anything to the camera.  I'd go with an enlarger lens (which are quite plentiful on the used market) like the Rodenstock APO Rodagon which are quite inexpensive but are designed to make a sharp image on a flat plane.   

All that said, I do sometimes still think about a very high end scanner, not for the resolution per se, but for the software and color correction.  One of the big flat beds that can take a bunch of film and run in a batch. 
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bambanx

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Re: digitizing medium format film wih nikon d800 and micro lenses
« Reply #18 on: July 19, 2014, 04:05:43 pm »

thanks guys, which one of the Rodenstock APO Rodagon  is the best ? thanks
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EricWHiss

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Re: digitizing medium format film wih nikon d800 and micro lenses
« Reply #19 on: July 19, 2014, 08:12:55 pm »

80 or 90mm

You'll probably want to go with the 80 since you'll need less extension.
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