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Author Topic: Diglloyd tests the P645Z  (Read 24128 times)

ErikKaffehr

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Diglloyd tests the P645Z
« on: July 05, 2014, 04:22:30 am »

Hi,

Lloyd Chambers is testing the Pentax 645Z, the impression I have that the test is still in progress.

This far it seems that he is a bit skeptical to the 645Z as he feels that the lenses are not good enough to match the top notch lenses from Leica on the S or the best lenses for 135. Lloyd had a direct shootout with the 645Z using the 25/4 comparing it with a 21/2.8 Zeiss adapted to a Sony Alpha 7r. In that case the Zeiss/Sony combo was better in all aspects.

I would say that the article is worth the 49$ subscription price, keeping in mind that Lloyd is a real pixelpeeper.

Best regards
Erik
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eronald

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Re: Diglloyd tests the P645Z
« Reply #1 on: July 05, 2014, 04:38:08 am »

Hi,

Lloyd Chambers is testing the Pentax 645Z, the impression I have that the test is still in progress.

This far it seems that he is a bit skeptical to the 645Z as he feels that the lenses are not good enough to match the top notch lenses from Leica on the S or the best lenses for 135. Lloyd had a direct shootout with the 645Z using the 25/4 comparing it with a 21/2.8 Zeiss adapted to a Sony Alpha 7r. In that case the Zeiss/Sony combo was better in all aspects.

I would say that the article is worth the 49$ subscription price, keeping in mind that Lloyd is a real pixelpeeper.

Best regards
Erik

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Re: Diglloyd tests the P645Z
« Reply #2 on: July 05, 2014, 04:59:53 am »

If adapted manual focus lenses are included, keep in mind that the 645Z can also use Carl Zeiss/Hasselblad V and Pentax 6x7 lenses, among others.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2014, 05:03:50 am by dag.bb »
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Diglloyd tests the P645Z
« Reply #3 on: July 05, 2014, 05:03:21 am »

Hi,

Lloyd's is a commercial site, so I guess that I am not allowed to disclose to much. Also, I think the article is still in progress.

The impression I have that new lenses are needed to keep the MF advantage over 135 now that we have some very good performers.

Best regards
Erik

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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Diglloyd tests the P645Z
« Reply #4 on: July 05, 2014, 06:27:47 am »

Hi,

I have five Hasselblad lenses 40/4 FLE, 50/4 FLE, 80/CFE, 120/CFi and 180/CFi, based on that experience I don't think they would keep up with top grade 135 lenses on a 36 MP sensor. For long time I have been shooting Pentax 67 and my hunch is they are a bit weaker than the Zeiss lenses.

The modern 135 Zeiss lenses are awesome. The MTFs for the 21/2.8 and 100/2.0 are enclosed and so is the MTF for the 150/4 Sonnar 150/4 for the Hasselblad. I also added the MTF curves for the 40/4 Distagon FLE which is the widest lens for the V-system (except the Biogon 38 and the 30 mm fisheye).

There is a newer version of the Distagon 40/4 called 40/4 IF CFE. That lens has a much improved design, but is not easy to find and very expensive.

If you happen to have a set of Pentax MF lenses and want a digital body, I would say both the P645D and the P645Z are very attractive. With Hasselblad lenses I would rather go with a Hasselblad body and a used Phase One/Hasselblad/Leaf back.

Myself, I have a Hasselblad 555 ELD with a P45+ back. I can just compare it to my Sony Alpha 99, which is 24MP full frame, and a couple of zooms. There is a resolution advantage to the Hassy/P45+ but I don't feel it is visible in print, up to say A2 size.


Best regards
Erik


If adapted manual focus lenses are included, keep in mind that the 645Z can also use Carl Zeiss/Hasselblad V and Pentax 6x7 lenses, among others.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2014, 09:44:56 am by ErikKaffehr »
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Re: Diglloyd tests the P645Z
« Reply #5 on: July 05, 2014, 06:31:49 am »

Hi,

Lloyd's is a commercial site, so I guess that I am not allowed to disclose to much. Also, I think the article is still in progress.

The impression I have that new lenses are needed to keep the MF advantage over 135 now that we have some very good performers.

Best regards
Erik


I think you are allowed to disclose a decent amount - this is called fair use under copyright law.

I used to have a subscription to Lloyd's site but dropped it because I shoot people and he shoots landscapes and so the aspects of a camera he discusses - resolution, distorsion etc - are not those which matter most to me ie. AF usability, skin tone, available light, quick focus check on back display. I find Michael's comments on cameras to be interesting because they reflect real world "stress" experience - ie. what happens when camera rubber hits the road.

Edmund
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Diglloyd tests the P645Z
« Reply #6 on: July 05, 2014, 06:47:24 am »

Hi,

Well, Lloyd uses to test equipment for a longer period, so I guess more information is coming. Right now he writes most about the lenses.

Clearly, the sensor is larger than 135, so if we assume it is like other Sony sensors it would have some advantage in DR, and probably one EV in high ISO capability.

I guess colour rendition is pretty much depending on camera profiles. Lloyd discusses it based on the Adobe Standard Profile and the embedded profile. As a landscape shooter, I don't know. In practice, I also feel that white balance plays a major role. If the camera has a good automatic WB it is most helpful.

Issues Lloyd mentions is that the shutter may cause vibrations and the camera lacks electronic first curtain which he feels may mitigate the problem, if the problem exists. He is also missing an electronic viewfinder, but I guess most buyer prefer an optical one.

Best regards
Erik


I think you are allowed to disclose a decent amount - this is called fair use under copyright law.

I used to have a subscription to Lloyd's site but dropped it because I shoot people and he shoots landscapes and so the aspects of a camera he discusses - resolution, distorsion etc - are not those which matter most to me ie. AF usability, skin tone, available light, quick focus check on back display. I find Michael's comments on cameras to be interesting because they reflect real world "stress" experience - ie. what happens when camera rubber hits the road.

Edmund
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Re: Diglloyd tests the P645Z
« Reply #7 on: July 05, 2014, 07:02:42 am »

Issues Lloyd mentions is that the shutter may cause vibrations and the camera lacks electronic first curtain which he feels may mitigate the problem, if the problem exists.

Hi Erik,

It may...

It sounds like he's stating the obvious, isn't he? One may hope he actually will test it over a range of shutterspeeds. From other tests, does it look like he has a procedure in place that produces quantifiable results for that?

Cheers,
Bart
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Diglloyd tests the P645Z
« Reply #8 on: July 05, 2014, 07:47:30 am »

Hi,

He mentions it as a potential problem. Similar problems have been reported on Phase One cameras and I think also the 645D. Lloyd has discovered the problem on the A7r and showed examples of it. He didn't quantify it, that takes some kind of analysis. Jim Kasson has done an excellent analysis on the A7r.

That is the reason I wrote may…

Now,  some MFD cameras use leaf shutters, which are said to be essentially vibration free, that may be a consideration.

Best regards
Erik

Hi Erik,

It may...

It sounds like he's stating the obvious, isn't he? One may hope he actually will test it over a range of shutterspeeds. From other tests, does it look like he has a procedure in place that produces quantifiable results for that?

Cheers,
Bart
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Re: Diglloyd tests the P645Z
« Reply #9 on: July 05, 2014, 08:48:51 am »

ie. what happens when camera rubber hits the road.

Or when lens hits the road  ;D

Kumar
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Paul2660

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Re: Diglloyd tests the P645Z
« Reply #10 on: July 05, 2014, 09:52:15 am »

I am not surprised by the "negative" Lloyd comments.  Sure most of the existing P645 lenses, are not up the standards of the sensor, as most are over 5 years old and many pre-date the 645D.  the 35mm FA, 33-55mm Zoom both were very good lenses and I guess still are. The 25mm results surprised me a bit, but it also could be a not so perfect copy. 

Lloyd is not a fan of MFD, and in fact has usually found ways to write against it in his reports/blogs.  He is also very concerned about exacting focus issues that I believe in the real world of photographic printing may be a bit overdone.  But that is just one voice in the wilderness.

He also tends to miss the big picture, i.e. what the total solution from Pentax with the 645Z can offer to a photographer. 

But I am glad to see he now is seeing good results with the A7r, as for the longest time, that was his bully pulpit with the issues around the shutter shake. 

Each photographer interested in this system, should take the time to demo the camera if at all possible and see if it meets their needs and their workflow.

Paul
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Diglloyd tests the P645Z
« Reply #11 on: July 05, 2014, 03:02:07 pm »

Hi Paul,

Thanks for responding, always a nice to see your view!

Regarding Lloyd's comments, I actually would say it is a bit interesting. Now, he actually shows a lot of images. Sometimes he also posts raw images. So any reader can make his opinion based on the images actually shown.

Regarding the A7r shutter vibration, it is obviously an issue in say the 1/15s to 1/125s range. Unfortunately this is exactly where I mostly end up. The image degradation is not to bad, something like shooting 24 MP instead of 36 MP, or so. Jim Kasson has looked into this a lot, and found that is was very hard to surpass the image quality of A7 with the A7r under those conditions. As it is now, I am not really interested in the A7/A7r, anyway. I always carry a 70-400/4-5.6 lens, so size matters little to me.

Now, getting back to the P645Z, Lloyd has tested a lot of the old Pentax lenses, and they were not very good. I never had a Pentax 645, but I do have a Pentax 67, and those lenses are not as good as my Hasselblad lenses, what I have seen. I am pretty sure that modern lenses are sharper than my old Hasselblad lenses. Now, sharper is not necessarily better. There is a lot more to a picture than sharpness. Right now, I am warming up a bit to the Hasselblad, BTW.

In a way, I feel that Lloyd is focusing a bit to much on sharpness. With the DSLRs I focus using magnified live view, whenever I can. Focusing the Hasselblad is for me a bit hard, I have made a special eyepiece adjusted for my vision, or I used a 3X magnifier. The magnifier worked pretty well, but it doesn't work with my adapted ocular.

Lloyd also found that AF isn't really exact. He has pretty good evidence for that.

Now, sharpness may not be the ultimate factor, but the P645Z uses essentially the same sensor as the Nikon D800 or the Sony Alpha 7r, just a bit larger. The size has an advantage with regard to DR, high ISO, resolution and not much else. So I feel that it is good that Lloyd presents his findings, with accompanying high resolution images.

Other factors may play a significant role. I have found that a good automatic white balance plays an important role. A good camera profile may be helpful with colour, and some profiles may work well for skin tones. As a landscape shooter I don't know that much about skin tones. I am pretty sure that interpretations differ.

Best regards
Erik


 

I am not surprised by the "negative" Lloyd comments.  Sure most of the existing P645 lenses, are not up the standards of the sensor, as most are over 5 years old and many pre-date the 645D.  the 35mm FA, 33-55mm Zoom both were very good lenses and I guess still are. The 25mm results surprised me a bit, but it also could be a not so perfect copy. 

Lloyd is not a fan of MFD, and in fact has usually found ways to write against it in his reports/blogs.  He is also very concerned about exacting focus issues that I believe in the real world of photographic printing may be a bit overdone.  But that is just one voice in the wilderness.

He also tends to miss the big picture, i.e. what the total solution from Pentax with the 645Z can offer to a photographer. 

But I am glad to see he now is seeing good results with the A7r, as for the longest time, that was his bully pulpit with the issues around the shutter shake. 

Each photographer interested in this system, should take the time to demo the camera if at all possible and see if it meets their needs and their workflow.

Paul
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Paul2660

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Re: Diglloyd tests the P645Z
« Reply #12 on: July 05, 2014, 03:16:47 pm »

Hello Erik

Your points are good ones.  I agree a weakness for Pentax is current lenses.  In a way this is similar issue for Nikon and 36MP sensors as I have found that various nikkor lenses aren't quite up to the 36MP of the sensor. 

I have held off of the A7r, for a few reasons, not as much the shutter vibration issue as the limited number of Sony FE mounts, and the fact that no Nikon lens will mount and use AE or AF.  (Not to mention Sony refuses to make a wired intervalometer so tiime laspe work with the Sony a7 series is limted to 30 seconds per expsoure)  Sad as the body is really perfect for timelaspe work.

I am looking forward to seeing how Nikon implemented the electronic first curtain on the new D810. 

As for Pentax, I personally don't feel the older 67 lenses will work much better as I used many of them on a 1ds MKII and 5D MKII with a zork adapter and found them a bit soft for my liking. 

One thing I have to give Lloyd credit for is he is very through in his reports :-)

Paul


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Re: Diglloyd tests the P645Z
« Reply #13 on: July 05, 2014, 04:39:11 pm »

If you happen to have a set of Pentax MF lenses and want a digital body, I would say both the P645D and the P645Z are very attractive.

This is why I bought my 645D. I sold off the 645 film body long ago but kept the lenses because I liked the way they render. Recently I did an informal comparison between the Pentax/75mm and Sony A7r/55mm combos. My conclusion, evaluating 15x20" and 14x21" prints, is that the Sony/55 gives an impression of greater clarity...wonderful for urban landscapes and (probably) desert/mountainous terrain. The Pentax/75 offers less abrupt tonality, leading to a gentler overall look...lovely when applied to the world of living things. Both systems are overkill resolution-wise for my printing needs and should be easily up to the task of an eventual 8k display system. Also, judging by Ming Thein's review photos (taken with the Pentax 75), the 645Z does a nice job of splitting the difference between my two systems.

-Dave-
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Diglloyd tests the P645Z
« Reply #14 on: July 05, 2014, 07:31:14 pm »

Hi,

Did I have a set of lenses, I may have ended buying the Pentax 645D, too.

The comparison Lloyd made with the P645Z using the 25/4 and the Sony Zeiss combo it was really pretty close. According to the samples he shown the Sony/Zeiss was better but not by a lot.

But, the 645/4 lens costs 4,496.95$ at B&H while the Zeiss 21/2.8 costs 1843$ and the Sony A7r 2298$, so the Sony with the Zeiss costs less than Pentax lens alone. That said, the 25 mm may be the most expensive lens in the Pentax line up. The samples I have seen from the P645D were all pretty sharp.

Lloyd has also tested the 90/2.8 macro and says it is very good.

Normally he shoots a mosaic for testing with the option to select different aperture camera combos using buttons. Very illustrative.

Best regards
Erik





This is why I bought my 645D. I sold off the 645 film body long ago but kept the lenses because I liked the way they render. Recently I did an informal comparison between the Pentax/75mm and Sony A7r/55mm combos. My conclusion, evaluating 15x20" and 14x21" prints, is that the Sony/55 gives an impression of greater clarity...wonderful for urban landscapes and (probably) desert/mountainous terrain. The Pentax/75 offers less abrupt tonality, leading to a gentler overall look...lovely when applied to the world of living things. Both systems are overkill resolution-wise for my printing needs and should be easily up to the task of an eventual 8k display system. Also, judging by Ming Thein's review photos (taken with the Pentax 75), the 645Z does a nice job of splitting the difference between my two systems.

-Dave-
« Last Edit: July 05, 2014, 08:01:54 pm by ErikKaffehr »
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Re: Diglloyd tests the P645Z
« Reply #15 on: July 05, 2014, 07:43:28 pm »

As someone who has witnessed Lloyd's 'testing' method first hand, I wouldn't put much stock into his conclusions.  Anyone including Lloyd can make soft, out of focus images on subject matter like moving water that are meaningless for evaluating performance of a camera system. Twenty duff images in a row proves nothing if the 21st is sharp.   I'd wait for someone who is interested in finding the best in a system and has experience enough with MF to know what to look for to come along and test.  

I haven't been a public fan of DXO's Medium format testing, however they look like stars with their scientific and repeatable testing methodology, compared to seat of the pants judgment calls like Lloyd calling out 2 stops difference in dynamic range between two outdoor shots based on his own judgement and not counting differences in things like time of day, clear or overcast sky.  I get the sense that Lloyd has certain goals, because no one could make those kind of unsubstantiated claims for long without being called to prove it. Oh yeah, he doesn't allow comments on his blog. Hmm….

I came across Martin Zimelka's reviews the other day. http://www.martinzimelka.com/homepage/Welcome.html

Now here's a guy who really writes a through review, knows about photography, is passionate about image making,  and share's his knowledge for free.  That's the way it should be IMHO.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2014, 10:03:05 pm by EricWHiss »
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Diglloyd tests the P645Z
« Reply #16 on: July 05, 2014, 11:18:52 pm »

Hi Bart,

This figure shows the shutter related vibration on the A7r quite quantifiably:


Full article: http://blog.kasson.com/?p=5296

The amount of sharpness lost depends on the masses involved, elasticity and dampening of the tripod, choice of suspension point, etc.


The curve below shows the effect on MTF of "electronic first curtain" of the A7, HE means Horisontal with EFC.


Best regards
Erik


Hi Erik,

It may...

It sounds like he's stating the obvious, isn't he? One may hope he actually will test it over a range of shutterspeeds. From other tests, does it look like he has a procedure in place that produces quantifiable results for that?

Cheers,
Bart
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Re: Diglloyd tests the P645Z
« Reply #17 on: July 06, 2014, 02:18:56 am »

second graph valley is surprising. why? why?

Hi Bart,

This figure shows the shutter related vibration on the A7r quite quantifiably:


Full article: http://blog.kasson.com/?p=5296

The amount of sharpness lost depends on the masses involved, elasticity and dampening of the tripod, choice of suspension point, etc.


The curve below shows the effect on MTF of "electronic first curtain" of the A7, HE means Horisontal with EFC.


Best regards
Erik


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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Diglloyd tests the P645Z
« Reply #18 on: July 06, 2014, 03:47:08 am »

Hi,

A good question. The difference is the behaviour of the first curtain. On a mirrorless camera the shutter needs to be closed pre exposure and that causes vibrations. But, it seems that the opening of the shutter causes most vibration. With a short exposure it will not affect resolution that much as motion is probably slow. Conservation of momentum essentially says that if shutter is 1g and moves at 10 m/s and the camera is say 500 g it will move at 1/50 m/s. So say with 10 ms exposure we will have 1/5000 mm motion not noticable. But with 1/10 s we will have 2 microns of motion, and that will be visible. With longer times the motion will be absorbed (or arrested?) by the mass of the tripod and sharpness improve again.

No great physics… but I guess you see my point.

These images, using a thermonuclear D50 illuminant at 93e6 miles distance ( http://www.space.com/17081-how-far-is-earth-from-the-sun.html) , show the loss off sharpness: http://blog.kasson.com/?m=20140110

Best regards
Erik

second graph valley is surprising. why? why?

« Last Edit: July 06, 2014, 06:17:45 am by ErikKaffehr »
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Re: Diglloyd tests the P645Z
« Reply #19 on: July 06, 2014, 05:34:33 am »

This figure shows the shutter related vibration on the A7r quite quantifiably:

Yes, something like that is what one would hope for. Obviously, large mirrors, and large curtain shutters (especially the faster traveling ones), will need to abruptly move more mass and thus create more opportunity to cause vibrations, duh.

The question then becomes, how well engineered are the counter measures, and do they result in a workable solution? One also has to consider that comparisons between different sensor dimensions need to be normalized, because larger sensors require less magnification for the same targeted output size. A Lines-Per-Picture-Height (LPPH) metric allows to do just that. Only showing cropped image sections is not enough for comparison between platforms, one needs to quantify, and then normalize.

Cheers,
Bart
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