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Author Topic: Pentax 645Z Review  (Read 26664 times)

eronald

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Re: Pentax 645Z Review
« Reply #40 on: July 20, 2014, 04:17:53 am »

I get that impression from all the MF CMOS sensor backs.

The great something of MF doesn't seem to be there in CMOS backs. More resolution, but very technical.

It's as if the fine tones of light aren't there, as if there was just blunt, factual recording, cutting out the finer moments.

We seem to be the only ones with this assessment of the images.
Interestingly, Ming has a review of the H4D40, and the H4D40 pictures are superb with no rework, but he doesn't realize just how good they are and thinks they are D800 -equivalent. I disagree :)
At least Ming is consistent - when given an MF-sized D800 he loves it.
 
It's possible that the firmware for the CMOS backs will be fixed once they realize they really do have an issue.

Edmund
« Last Edit: July 20, 2014, 04:36:36 am by eronald »
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eronald

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Re: Pentax 645Z Review
« Reply #41 on: July 20, 2014, 04:35:17 am »

Could it be the great something is false detail?

Does it matter?
Like film before it, CCD is going away.
The CCD look is going away, like the analogue look which preceded it.
Photographers and customers will adapt their esthetics.

The immediate and soon to come workflow advantages of CMOS are again a huge step forward: Huge ISO (cheap lighting), Huge DR (latitude), liveview, video, main sensor AF, preview look and color balance in efinder during liveview, electronic first shutter curtain means no vibration, and of course full frame still extraction from a video stream which will revolutionize fashion.

If medium format shooters wanted better files, rather than faster cheaper catalog shoot tools, they would need to demonstrate that they can recognize them. As most photographers cannot see a difference, they don't need anything different from what is being sold to them.

Edmund

PS. I will wait a few years and then I will buy up some old Hassies or even a Leica S - that will solve *my* camera problem.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2014, 06:44:26 pm by eronald »
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bcooter

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Re: Pentax 645Z Review
« Reply #42 on: July 20, 2014, 01:29:43 pm »

Quote

Like film before it, CCD is going away.
The CCD look is going away, like the analogue look which preceded it.



I'm not going to leap into a ccd look vs a cmos vs film or anything debate because like the ten million 35mm vs. medium format "discussions"  
those go absolutely nowhere.

Some think they see a difference in capture mediums,  some think they don't, some think it doesn't matter.

I just know of life through my experience and have experienced  creatives selecting 25 or 15, or 30 something images from our repertoire
that all we're shot with ccd cameras.

It could be that we spent more effort in lighting given the lower iso, (though many were daylight)

It could be that we sharpen ccd images differently.  

It could just be that they do look different and in the world of commerce even a slight difference is good.

I know it doesn't matter to anyone but the image maker and sometimes the people paying.

Leica M9's are hard to find and in demand by people that think they see a difference,
others think they don't, but photographer's willing to pay a premium for an older camera would be hard to convince otherwise.

Doesn't mean either views are right or wrong.  

Except for creative briefs that don't resonate.there usually isn't a right or wrong in image making for commerce.

In regards to the comment that a certain look is departing, I don't see it exactly that way.

What overall sensibilities I see changing in commercial imagery is two trends.

1.  A real life look where there is limited on set production and either light or minimal or maybe
even inexperienced post production, usually due to budget, sometimes because less fussy imagery is considered more believable.

(BTW:  I love beautifully constructed, real looking imagery and from experience can say it's one of the most
difficult things in the world to pull off.   Just shooting for shooting sake doesn't really do it.)

2.  A very effected post production look, with 10x's more effort weighted to the backend, but once again usually due to budget, though not always.


The capture device really is a small part of the process, no matter how many of us are tempted by gleaming new
boxes and promises of new is better than old, regardless of pixel peeping testers, or budget conscious naysayers.

For 5 years and today budget and time are much more compressed in the professional image making world than ever before,
regardless of the medium, regardless of the capture device, regardless of your role, from creative, to writer,
photographer/director/imager maker, to post production team.

As far as medium format cameras moving/adding cmos, that was inevitable, given it allows for higher iso, real live view and
expands the medium format market, which is the goal of any camera maker, whether they sell 20 or 20,000 cameras a month.

The bottom line is really the bottom line.   Higher iso, smaller form factors usually make for speedier production and faster
production usually costs less money, at least on the front end.

If the results are better or worse, is the purchase worth it, that's a real judgment call.

What I do find surprising is some of the negative responses on this forum about the Pentax.  

People have been quite vocal for an under 10 grand medium format cameras for years and now they have them, or at least one of
them and I'd think the response would have been overwhelmingly positive.




IMO

BC








« Last Edit: July 20, 2014, 11:53:38 pm by bcooter »
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eronald

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Re: Pentax 645Z Review
« Reply #43 on: July 21, 2014, 03:41:52 am »

J,

I agree the response to the Pentax has been underwhelming. Maybe the pix will save it; for me, the issue is that it is a huge beast with a comparatively small sensor and finder - about as sexy as a rhinoceros; I don't like it. The obvious jokes about an arranged marriage to a very large and ugly woman for dowry reasons come to mind: the size of the dowry doesn't make her pretty, just marriageable. BTW, the original and now $5K Pentax 645D is a really good deal.

I don't know how more much time compression and budget compression is compatible with "constructed" still photography of people. The budget compression and global campaigns also seem to have eradicated most of the middle class of product photographers. In the news business the transformation is complete, and news still photojournalists are all but extinct. Maybe staged sets and constructed lighting etc will only be used commercially in the future when video budgets are available, and what we now see as studio still photography will be practiced as a supplement to video, except for the few at the narrowing apex of the pyramid.

On the other hand, I am enthused by the number of nice cheap used cameras that will be flooding the market over the next few years - photographically excellent Leica M8's are now around $1.2K,  used consumer dSLRs and "high end" point and shoots are flea market items. If one only outputs to web, or prints at A3 size, then the practice of photography becomes one of the cheapest and most accessible art forms or hobbies imaginable - almost right there with drawing on restaurant napkins :)

Edmund


I'm not going to leap into a ccd look vs a cmos vs film or anything debate because like the ten million 35mm vs. medium format "discussions"  
those go absolutely nowhere.

Some think they see a difference in capture mediums,  some think they don't, some think it doesn't matter.

I just know of life through my experience and have experienced  creatives selecting 25 or 15, or 30 something images from our repertoire
that all we're shot with ccd cameras.

It could be that we spent more effort in lighting given the lower iso, (though many were daylight)

It could be that we sharpen ccd images differently.  

It could just be that they do look different and in the world of commerce even a slight difference is good.

I know it doesn't matter to anyone but the image maker and sometimes the people paying.

Leica M9's are hard to find and in demand by people that think they see a difference,
others think they don't, but photographer's willing to pay a premium for an older camera would be hard to convince otherwise.

Doesn't mean either views are right or wrong.  

Except for creative briefs that don't resonate.there usually isn't a right or wrong in image making for commerce.

In regards to the comment that a certain look is departing, I don't see it exactly that way.

What overall sensibilities I see changing in commercial imagery is two trends.

1.  A real life look where there is limited on set production and either light or minimal or maybe
even inexperienced post production, usually due to budget, sometimes because less fussy imagery is considered more believable.

(BTW:  I love beautifully constructed, real looking imagery and from experience can say it's one of the most
difficult things in the world to pull off.   Just shooting for shooting sake doesn't really do it.)

2.  A very effected post production look, with 10x's more effort weighted to the backend, but once again usually due to budget, though not always.


The capture device really is a small part of the process, no matter how many of us are tempted by gleaming new
boxes and promises of new is better than old, regardless of pixel peeping testers, or budget conscious naysayers.

For 5 years and today budget and time are much more compressed in the professional image making world than ever before,
regardless of the medium, regardless of the capture device, regardless of your role, from creative, to writer,
photographer/director/imager maker, to post production team.

As far as medium format cameras moving/adding cmos, that was inevitable, given it allows for higher iso, real live view and
expands the medium format market, which is the goal of any camera maker, whether they sell 20 or 20,000 cameras a month.

The bottom line is really the bottom line.   Higher iso, smaller form factors usually make for speedier production and faster
production usually costs less money, at least on the front end.

If the results are better or worse, is the purchase worth it, that's a real judgment call.

What I do find surprising is some of the negative responses on this forum about the Pentax.  

People have been quite vocal for an under 10 grand medium format cameras for years and now they have them, or at least one of
them and I'd think the response would have been overwhelmingly positive.




IMO

BC









« Last Edit: July 21, 2014, 05:01:30 am by eronald »
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MrSmith

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Re: Pentax 645Z Review
« Reply #44 on: July 21, 2014, 05:29:55 am »

One of the rental houses/dealers in London has an open day and will I presume be stocking the pentax and obviously doing rental, they are also a phase one dealer.
Wonder if any others will follow suit? Even the official hassleblad dealer/rental/importer hires phase one too and used to do pentax 6x7 back in the film days.
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eronald

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Re: Pentax 645Z Review
« Reply #45 on: July 21, 2014, 06:50:47 am »

One of the rental houses/dealers in London has an open day and will I presume be stocking the pentax and obviously doing rental, they are also a phase one dealer.
Wonder if any others will follow suit? Even the official hassleblad dealer/rental/importer hires phase one too and used to do pentax 6x7 back in the film days.


The Pentax has a realistic list price and probably makes good pictures - I'm not sure rental houses appreciate its existence because the inflated Phase list prices really increased their margins -and the backhanders to photographers in "latin" markets.

Edmund
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MrSmith

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Re: Pentax 645Z Review
« Reply #46 on: July 21, 2014, 07:19:18 am »

if there is a demand for it they will rent it. but the rental will be £150 p/day not £350
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Pentax 645Z Review
« Reply #47 on: July 21, 2014, 07:24:42 am »

Hi,

If you need a state of the art DSLR with 50 MP, the Pentax 645Z may the camera to get…

Best regards
Erik

The Pentax has a realistic list price and probably makes good pictures - I'm not sure rental houses appreciate its existence because the inflated Phase list prices really increased their margins -and the backhanders to photographers in "latin" markets.

Edmund
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ondebanks

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Re: Pentax 645Z Review
« Reply #48 on: July 21, 2014, 07:26:33 am »

I get that impression from all the MF CMOS sensor backs.

The great something of MF doesn't seem to be there in CMOS backs. More resolution, but very technical.

It's as if the fine tones of light aren't there, as if there was just blunt, factual recording, cutting out the finer moments.

I don't really get your point. The only thing any digital camera does is "blunt, factual recording" of light. A camera has no appreciation of the quality of light or the right place or moment to make an exposure. So what you're really complaining about is the decisions of the photographer, and given that this was just a test review shoot, I don't think it's fair to complain about that either.

Ray
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Telecaster

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Re: Pentax 645Z Review
« Reply #49 on: July 21, 2014, 04:31:54 pm »

The only thing any digital camera does is "blunt, factual recording" of light.

Really?! The use of CFAs alone introduces subjectivity and taste into the datapath. Then we get to processing firmware & outboard software, which are required to massage the sensor's data into something resembling the product of human vision. More subjectivity.

-Dave-
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eronald

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Re: Pentax 645Z Review
« Reply #50 on: July 21, 2014, 05:45:37 pm »

I don't really get your point. The only thing any digital camera does is "blunt, factual recording" of light. A camera has no appreciation of the quality of light or the right place or moment to make an exposure. So what you're really complaining about is the decisions of the photographer, and given that this was just a test review shoot, I don't think it's fair to complain about that either.

Ray

Speaking as an engineer, I've never understood all this BS about how important a "photographer" is - the body that owns, maintains and relocates the equipment, unpacks it, and makes the shutter go click by pressing the button. Everybody owns one or several cameras these days, eg. in their phones and most have the good sense not to call themselves "photographers".

Edmund
« Last Edit: July 21, 2014, 05:47:38 pm by eronald »
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ondebanks

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Re: Pentax 645Z Review
« Reply #51 on: July 21, 2014, 06:51:45 pm »

Really?! The use of CFAs alone introduces subjectivity and taste into the datapath. Then we get to processing firmware & outboard software, which are required to massage the sensor's data into something resembling the product of human vision. More subjectivity.

-Dave-

You don't need to tell me about CFA differences, Dave - I seem to spend my life pointing out to certain people that CFA tweaking is a big part of why they think CMOS is inferior to the "CCD look".

No, I was questioning rather why he expects "fine tones of light" to feature in the kind of everyday shots that Ming posted in his review. And in particular what "the finer moments" - something temporal and presumably fleeting - has to do with evaluating sensor quality. I reiterate that "The only thing any digital camera does is "blunt, factual recording" of light.": or to put it another way, it's just "photons in, electrons out" - the sensor does what it does, regardless of the "fine-ness" of the scene.

Ray
« Last Edit: July 21, 2014, 06:55:47 pm by ondebanks »
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eronald

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Re: Pentax 645Z Review
« Reply #52 on: July 21, 2014, 07:08:17 pm »

You don't need to tell me about CFA differences, Dave - I seem to spend my life pointing out to certain people that CFA tweaking is a big part of why they think CMOS is inferior to the "CCD look".

No, I was questioning rather why he expects "fine tones of light" to feature in the kind of everyday shots that Ming posted in his review. And in particular what "the finer moments" - something temporal and presumably fleeting - has to do with evaluating sensor quality. I reiterate that "The only thing any digital camera does is "blunt, factual recording" of light.": or to put it another way, it's just "photons in, electrons out" - the sensor does what it does, regardless of the "fine-ness" of the scene.

Ray

I don't know about Ming, but Joe Average overexposes some of every shot, underexposes another part, gets stranded in strongly channel-unbalanced lighting, takes several shots in a row and overheats the sensor...stressing the poor camera in a novel way with each new incompetent attempt to capture an image. The poor thing gets so stressed it cannot function objectively and dispassionately do much blunt, factual recording" of light.

That's why Joe Average is called a "camera user" and not a "photographer". A "photographer" is somebody who  sets up clean lighting, puts a DR-limited test chart in front of the camera, uses a sturdy tripod, and manages to find the shutter button and click it. Photographers are so smart and technically competent that they can employ any camera :)

Edmund
« Last Edit: July 21, 2014, 07:47:26 pm by eronald »
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Jim Kasson

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Re: Pentax 645Z Review
« Reply #53 on: July 21, 2014, 07:25:22 pm »

That's why Joe Average is called a "camera user" and not a "photographer". A "photographer" is somebody who  sets up clean lighting, puts a DR-limited test chart in front of the camera, uses a sturdy tripod, and manages to find the shutter button and click it. Photographers are so smart and technically competent that they can employ any camera :)

The way I heard it, if you buy a violin, you own a violin, but if you buy a camera, you are a photographer.

Jim

eronald

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Re: Pentax 645Z Review
« Reply #54 on: July 21, 2014, 07:52:49 pm »

The way I heard it, if you buy a violin, you own a violin, but if you buy a camera, you are a photographer.

Jim

As my japanese friends would say, "that sounds about light".

Edmund
« Last Edit: July 22, 2014, 07:46:37 am by eronald »
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Pentax 645Z Review
« Reply #55 on: July 22, 2014, 06:46:50 am »

Hi,

I would agree with the camera bluntly recording light. On the CFA thing, I don't know. It is always the question of CFA and colour conversion matrix combination. With DNG, colour conversion matrix varies with colour temperature.

Colour temperature choice in raw conversion matters a lot. I happened to change defaults for my P45+ in LR5 by mistake so default is a measured WB from a grey card, so my conversions are much better now. A lucky mistake. (Now I have change default WB to a known ColorChecker exposure.)

Sensors add some shot noise, PRNUnoise and readout noise of their own, and so add some fake detail unless stopped down enough to eliminate aliasing artefacts (f/16 on my P45+).

Best regards
Erik


You don't need to tell me about CFA differences, Dave - I seem to spend my life pointing out to certain people that CFA tweaking is a big part of why they think CMOS is inferior to the "CCD look".

No, I was questioning rather why he expects "fine tones of light" to feature in the kind of everyday shots that Ming posted in his review. And in particular what "the finer moments" - something temporal and presumably fleeting - has to do with evaluating sensor quality. I reiterate that "The only thing any digital camera does is "blunt, factual recording" of light.": or to put it another way, it's just "photons in, electrons out" - the sensor does what it does, regardless of the "fine-ness" of the scene.

Ray
« Last Edit: July 22, 2014, 08:47:07 am by ErikKaffehr »
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eronald

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Re: Pentax 645Z Review
« Reply #56 on: July 22, 2014, 08:31:24 am »

A typical example of a "camera user" rather than "photographer" is this guy called Cooter or something who keeps posting here. He insists on changing the illuminant in his shoots, often mixes uncontrolled "natural" light with proper studio lights, creates scenes that have deep shadows and highlights rather than nice uniform lighting, and also he uses models who have speculars on their hair and faces. These he even sets up against windows, stressing the DR of the camera to a point which is technically excessive. And he lets his models wear textile clothes, which are a known potential source of Moiré! These are the sort of people which camera designers have to work around - they all think they are artists of some sort.

Then there's this other guy who does interior design he keeps insisting that he needs to show the inside of the house and the stuff outside the windows - ridiculous! Anybody could tell you that's going to be a headache -

Oh, yeah, there's also this landscape guy, he always wants both land, sky, and sea speculars to show on his pics. I don't understand some of them, I mean anybody could tell you that's just asking too much, and there's going to be a problem with the camera if the sun is in the picture.

:) :) :)

Edmund
« Last Edit: July 22, 2014, 08:36:17 am by eronald »
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eronald

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Re: Pentax 645Z Review
« Reply #57 on: July 22, 2014, 09:17:20 am »

Welcome to the silly season.

I'm sorry, I must have had a senior moment :)

Edmund
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Chris Livsey

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Re: Pentax 645Z Review
« Reply #58 on: July 22, 2014, 04:19:55 pm »

I blame the heat.
I blame the camera  ;D It's never the photographer.
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Re: Pentax 645Z Review
« Reply #59 on: July 25, 2014, 12:35:43 pm »

Speaking as an engineer, I've never understood all this BS about how important a "photographer" is - the body that owns, maintains and relocates the equipment, unpacks it, and makes the shutter go click by pressing the button.

Are you suggesting that, a la Dawkins, we are just vehicles for the reproduction of selfish cameras?
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