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Author Topic: Pentax 645Z Review  (Read 26666 times)

eronald

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Re: Pentax 645Z Review
« Reply #20 on: June 29, 2014, 04:24:48 pm »

Predictably, the Sony CMOS chip does well on things, has huge DR etc. However we haven't seen any decent real-world people pics yet.

Frankly, if I felt so inclined, after looking at this review, I would just go get a D810; at 1/3 of the price of the Pentax Z and 1/10 of the Phase, it looks like a real bargain and camera enough to get any job done decently if not well.

Edmund

Hi,

Interesting and actually quite well done, IMHO, but no real surprise. You could read DxO-mark instead ;-)

I happen to shoot Hasselblad V, too, and I don't really agree on the lenses. I am pretty sure that the Hasselblad V lenses are better than Pentax 67 lenses, of which I own five. But, I feel they fell short of modern lenses for DSLRs on edge contrast and colour fringing.

Best regards
Erik



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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Pentax 645Z Review
« Reply #21 on: June 29, 2014, 04:30:02 pm »

Hi,

Yes, if you don't need 50 MP resolution. I may add that I don't think that resolution is all that important. My best pictures were probably made using 12 MP, and they are good enough at A2 size. More pixels have more info, but may be we don't see it in prints.

Best regards
Erik

Predictably, the Sony CMOS chip does well on things, has huge DR etc. However we haven't seen any decent real-world people pics yet.

Frankly, if I felt so inclined, after looking at this review, I would just go get a D810; at 1/3 of the price of the Pentax Z and 1/10 of the Phase, it looks like a real bargain and camera enough to get any job done decently if not well.

Edmund

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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Pentax 645Z Review
« Reply #22 on: June 29, 2014, 05:10:22 pm »

Predictably, the Sony CMOS chip does well on things, has huge DR etc. However we haven't seen any decent real-world people pics yet.

Frankly, if I felt so inclined, after looking at this review, I would just go get a D810; at 1/3 of the price of the Pentax Z and 1/10 of the Phase, it looks like a real bargain and camera enough to get any job done decently if not well.

It really depends on the needs, shooting style, target applications,...

As far as I am concerned, replacing my D800 by a D810 and replacing one tele lens by another one will cost me about the same as buying the 645Z without lenses... but will enable me to perform much better for a given project.

For stitched landscapes I don't see any value for the 645z. There is no Otus in the Pentax line up and nothing coming close to the Leica 180mm f2.8 APO for distant landscape in terms of sharpness nor in terms of weight/image quality ratio. When stitching doesn't apply, 17% additional linear resolution isn't insignificant... but those images are few and appart.

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: June 29, 2014, 07:58:09 pm by BernardLanguillier »
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eronald

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Re: Pentax 645Z Review
« Reply #23 on: June 29, 2014, 07:19:19 pm »

It really depends on the needs, shooting style, target applications,...

As far as I am concerned, replacing my D800 by a D810 and replacing one tele lens by another one will cost me about the same as buying the 645Z without lenses... but will enable me to perform much better for a given project.

For stitched landscape I don't see any value for the 645z. There is no Otus in Pentax line up and nothing coming close to the Leica 180mm f2.8 APO for distant landscape in terms of sharpness nor in terms of weight/image quality ratio. When stitching doesn't apply, 17% additional linear resolution isn't insignificant... but those images are few and appart.

Cheers,
Bernard


The unfortunate corollary here is that there is now little added value of the Phase and Hassy 50MP Cmos solutions except for people who need hi sync speed. With the Sony or Nikon and a Sigma lens you get the same sensor technology with a slightly different aspect ratio and 20% less pixels for 1/10 price of the Phase. Sharpness is probably equivalent, and decent AF is thrown in :)

At some point we're all going to agree that the emperor has few clothes; personally I think the low-rez CCD backs may still have something going for them lookwise, however the crop-CMOS Phase and Hassy  solutions are nice additions if you are already in those systems, but don't make sense if you have zero lenses. The equation may change if decent-sized CMOS backs arrive, and we see some real MF again.

Edmund
« Last Edit: June 29, 2014, 07:25:39 pm by eronald »
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Ken R

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Re: Pentax 645Z Review
« Reply #24 on: June 29, 2014, 09:03:08 pm »


The unfortunate corollary here is that there is now little added value of the Phase and Hassy 50MP Cmos solutions except for people who need hi sync speed. With the Sony or Nikon and a Sigma lens you get the same sensor technology with a slightly different aspect ratio and 20% less pixels for 1/10 price of the Phase. Sharpness is probably equivalent, and decent AF is thrown in :)

At some point we're all going to agree that the emperor has few clothes; personally I think the low-rez CCD backs may still have something going for them lookwise, however the crop-CMOS Phase and Hassy  solutions are nice additions if you are already in those systems, but don't make sense if you have zero lenses. The equation may change if decent-sized CMOS backs arrive, and we see some real MF again.

Edmund

The big issue with the Pentax is the lens selection. It is limited. If all one needs is satisfied by what is available then this is a non issue since most lenses are good at f8-f11 and a lot can be had for cheap. With the Nikon and The Sony A7R one has a LOT of different lenses available from extreme wide angles to very fast lenses to extreme teles and of course a selection of Tilt Shift Lenses.

Medium Format Digital Backs offer an amazing variety of lenses available when one includes SLR lenses (which are somewhat system dependent), tech camera lenses  and also the 35mm SLR lenses that work with the backs using a system like the Alpa FPS.

As of today nothing matches the edge to edge performance (even when using most of the large image circle) of the current crop of tech wide angle lenses. So if wide angle work is your thing then tech wides are still the best option available in regards to optical performance. It is just stunning.

For normal and slight tele focal lengths then one start getting into the SLR MF systems and the 645Z and D810 are thrown into the mix but still the MF systems from Phase/Hassy/Leica offer the options of flash sync at all shutter speeds and of course the tech camera systems offer the option of in plane back stitching since most lenses in that range have very large image circles.

For tele and extreme tele work the 35mm DSLRs are still the best choice.

For studio still life and macro nothing offers the overall control of a tech or LF camera with movements.

But as usual YMMV and its great to have many choices since ultimately camera system choice is a matter of preference.

I for one love the big sensors and the image quality I get from my IQ160 is just awesome whether I use it on my Hasselblad H or on my Arca. The large file size combined with the physically large sensor just behaves very differently from the 35mm DSLR sensors. Having owned the 645D the difference in size is noticeable between it ad the IQ160 just as the difference in size between the 645D and the D800E is too. As the numbers suggest the difference between the IQ160 sensor size and the D800E sensor size is quite significant, less so when you jump from the D800E size to the 645D (and Z/IQ250) size but the difference is there and it is noticeable.

I also really like the PhaseOne IQ chasis. The screen is awesome, tethering robust and the back just feels very solid. Disregarding the particular sensor it houses the IQ platform is superbly designed and is really EONS ahead of the previous MFDB designs and even the latest H5D backs. Yes we all wish they were lower in price but unfortunately no one else has come up with a product that matches it.

Honestly just like I found the 645D to be in some middle ground that makes it a tough choice (for me at least) the 645Z is too. Nestled between the great Nikon D800/D810 (with its huge Nikon / Zeiss lens lines) and the MFDBs with the versatility of being able to use them in a wide range of systems / setups including tech cameras and their superb lenses.
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DavidLondon

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Re: Pentax 645Z Review
« Reply #25 on: June 30, 2014, 07:57:12 am »

I have a brief unscientific post on my Pentax 645Z here: http://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/48-pentax-645d-medium-format/266813-645z-first-play-date.html#post2864160

My clients spend their time trying to severely crop any image I give them in their sudden desire to re-purpose for who knows what, so a 51 mpx image will always be better than a 12 mpx image if you have many advertising agency or design clients.

My only issue so far with the Pentax is that I can't really use it tethered to C1 which I have always done with my Phase One back. Pentax tethering solution is promised, but probably only with their software. I'm still learning and testing this camera so don't expect to use it on a job for a week or two...
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Pentax 645Z Review
« Reply #26 on: June 30, 2014, 02:52:26 pm »

Hi,

I would say this is a good point. We see some real great lenses coming from Sigma (Art) and Zeiss (Otus) and I would expect 54 MP or so full frame 135 as the technology in APS-C is already there.

I am not sure that the Pentax 645Z is so much ahead next generation 135 in image quality. That said, the larger sensor has some advantage, and the cost is lower than what you pay for a P45+ back without camera body.

The same may apply to the IQ-250 to some extent.

Best regards
Erik



Honestly just like I found the 645D to be in some middle ground that makes it a tough choice (for me at least) the 645Z is too. Nestled between the great Nikon D800/D810 (with its huge Nikon / Zeiss lens lines) and the MFDBs with the versatility of being able to use them in a wide range of systems / setups including tech cameras and their superb lenses.
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sim4nee

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Re: Pentax 645Z Review
« Reply #27 on: July 08, 2014, 02:38:20 am »

I had an opportunity a few days ago to witness my photographer friend  testing both Pentax 645Z and Leica S. Pentax with the tele 150mm and Leicas S with Macro 120mm f2.5, ha gave me couple of raw file to do the comparison and this is the result. Both shot at same EV, WB. The skin tone in Pentax looks flat and couldn't render red very well, not sure if this has anything to do with being CMOS sensor.



*I've posted this in another thread as well.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2014, 05:44:49 am by sim4nee »
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Pentax 645Z Review
« Reply #28 on: July 08, 2014, 02:51:09 am »



The model seems to prefer the Pentax.

Cheers,
Bernard

Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Pentax 645Z Review
« Reply #29 on: July 08, 2014, 03:31:14 am »

I had an opportunity a few days ago to witness my photographer friend  testing both Pentax 645Z and Leica S. Pentax with the tele 150mm and Leicas S with Macro 120mm f2.5, ha gave me couple of raw file to do the comparison and this is the result. Both shot at same EV, WB.

Did that same EV setting result in equal exposure levels of Raw data? IOW, are both cameras equally sensitive, e.g. when set to ISO 100? The White Balance setting upon shooting is not relevant for Raw's, the WB as determined by the Raw converter is.

Quote
The skin tone in Pentax looks flat and couldn't render red very well, not sure if this has anything to do with being CMOS sensor.

No, it has nothing to do with CMOS. The only thing that matters are the characteristics of the Bayer CFA filters used. More relevantly, which camera profile was used in C1 for the Leica S and for the Pentax 645Z?

It's known that C1 does not always handle DNGs all that well as other native Raw formats, so that may say more about that than about the camera ... Did you also compare in e.g. Lightroom?

Cheers,
Bart
« Last Edit: July 08, 2014, 03:36:26 am by BartvanderWolf »
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eronald

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Re: Pentax 645Z Review
« Reply #30 on: July 08, 2014, 04:47:50 am »

Bart see remark in other thread. CFAs define color, but skin tone also depends on texture reproduction, and many CMOS camera destroy texture by excessively filtering the Raw files to hide sensor issues.

Edmund


No, it has nothing to do with CMOS. The only thing that matters are the characteristics of the Bayer CFA filters used. More relevantly, which camera profile was used in C1 for the Leica S and for the Pentax 645Z?
Bart
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Pentax 645Z Review
« Reply #31 on: July 08, 2014, 05:00:02 am »

Hi Ronald,

I know you say this but what kind of filtering would that be? Have you any proof?

Best regards
Erik
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Pentax 645Z Review
« Reply #32 on: July 08, 2014, 05:12:05 am »

Bart see remark in other thread. CFAs define color, but skin tone also depends on texture reproduction, and many CMOS camera destroy texture by excessively filtering the Raw files to hide sensor issues.

Hi Edmund,

We're not talking about consumer grade cameras here that take liberties with noise reduction.

The noise reduction of CMOS devices is known as correlated double sampling, which has no effect on texture because that requires several neighboring pixels. Double sampling reduces individual pixel noise by removing reset noise thus leaving shot noise and readnoise (the latter of which is usually lower in CMOS as well).

Maybe you are referring to other filtering, I wouldn't know what that is without some examples.

Cheers,
Bart  
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eronald

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Re: Pentax 645Z Review
« Reply #33 on: July 08, 2014, 05:47:54 am »

Hi Edmund,

We're not talking about consumer grade cameras here that take liberties with noise reduction.

The noise reduction of CMOS devices is known as correlated double sampling, which has no effect on texture because that requires several neighboring pixels. Double sampling reduces individual pixel noise by removing reset noise thus leaving shot noise and readnoise (the latter of which is usually lower in CMOS as well).

Maybe you are referring to other filtering, I wouldn't know what that is without some examples.

Cheers,


Bart  

I'll see if I can chase something down that shows the extent of CMOS pattern noise.

Anyway, we'll son have a ton of samples to look at. For myself, I believe that the fact that the same matrices as for the A7R work indicate that the 50MP chips have the same CFAs as the A7R, and Sony probably provides a software SDK that realizes A7R-style pattern noise reduction quality - so the A7R should be a baseline for what we should be seeing. Have we seen A7R portraits?

Even if there is some noise reduction smearing, it should be at pixel scale, while the image scales up with a larger sensor, meaning Pentax/Phase/Hassy images should be perceived as better than the A7R, if equivalent glass were used. I don't know how an average MF lens stacks up next to the new breed of dSLR super-lenses but I'm sure real world experience will soon make speculation moot.

Edmund
« Last Edit: July 08, 2014, 07:06:09 am by eronald »
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Pentax 645Z Review
« Reply #34 on: July 09, 2014, 01:33:20 am »

Hi,

One thing that comes to my mind is that non OLP filtered MF-backs will create artificial low frequency detail, which can add structure.

Doug Peterson's library pictures has indicated that the Iq-250 has much less aliasing, at least much less colour aliasing, than IQ-260 and IQ-280. This may depend on the gapless microlenses on the IQ-250, which increase the fill factor. Hard to find any other explanation.

I guess some of the MFD look comes from aliasing.

Best regards
Erik


Bart  

I'll see if I can chase something down that shows the extent of CMOS pattern noise.

Anyway, we'll son have a ton of samples to look at. For myself, I believe that the fact that the same matrices as for the A7R work indicate that the 50MP chips have the same CFAs as the A7R, and Sony probably provides a software SDK that realizes A7R-style pattern noise reduction quality - so the A7R should be a baseline for what we should be seeing. Have we seen A7R portraits?

Even if there is some noise reduction smearing, it should be at pixel scale, while the image scales up with a larger sensor, meaning Pentax/Phase/Hassy images should be perceived as better than the A7R, if equivalent glass were used. I don't know how an average MF lens stacks up next to the new breed of dSLR super-lenses but I'm sure real world experience will soon make speculation moot.

Edmund
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Telecaster

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Re: Pentax 645Z Review
« Reply #35 on: July 15, 2014, 05:39:22 pm »

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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Pentax 645Z Review
« Reply #36 on: July 15, 2014, 06:10:53 pm »

Hi,

Interesting read, but pretty much what I (and you) would expect.

Best regards
Erik

Part Three of Mr. Ming's review is now up.

http://blog.mingthein.com/2014/07/15/the-pentax-645z-review-part-iii-sdm-lenses-and-long-exposures/

-Dave-
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ondebanks

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Re: Pentax 645Z Review
« Reply #37 on: July 17, 2014, 09:41:10 am »

Part Three of Mr. Ming's review is now up.

http://blog.mingthein.com/2014/07/15/the-pentax-645z-review-part-iii-sdm-lenses-and-long-exposures/

-Dave-

Given what he's already found regarding its excellent high ISO shadow detail (beating the D800E at full res, and the D4 when downsampled to match MP), and now these long exposure dark noise results (several times better than the D800E, apparently), the 645Z would appear to be the current most suitable single-shot-colour astro camera.

I'd be thrilled about that, and saving my cents for one, if only it could reach infinity with M645 lenses! But alas that's impossible, and there's nothing in the Pentax lineup to correspond to must-haves like my 24/4 fisheye, 80/1.9, 200/2.8 APO...it's been said many times that the only real weak point of the Pentax MFD option is the lens range, and I fully concur. Meanwhile, the IQ250 is way out of my budget.

Phamiya: got the lenses, can't afford the CMOS sensor. Pentax: can afford the CMOS sensor, doesn't have the lenses.  :-[

What I need is someone to build an A7R-like (better still, an X-T1 like) short-flange mirrorless body using the 645Z sensor!
And just think of the other possibilities, such as Hartblei/Alpa-FPS style use of 35mm lenses on a medium format sensor  ;D.

Ray
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The View

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Re: Pentax 645Z Review
« Reply #38 on: July 19, 2014, 07:48:57 pm »

The images look ded. Sharp, detailed, lifeless.
The one with the bushes seen from the top stuck in my memory as good, nice texture. I also like the  pic of the camera itself in the beginning :)
It would be interesting if someone finally put a Z and a D side by side.
Here in Europe the D is selling new for 5KE.

Edmund

PS completely offtopic - but here is what the competition can do (Sigma DP2 Quattro):
http://dc.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/review/newproduct/20140626_655138.html

I get that impression from all the MF CMOS sensor backs.

The great something of MF doesn't seem to be there in CMOS backs. More resolution, but very technical.

It's as if the fine tones of light aren't there, as if there was just blunt, factual recording, cutting out the finer moments.
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Pentax 645Z Review
« Reply #39 on: July 20, 2014, 03:41:20 am »

Hi,

I would expect the Pentax 645 to perform better on noise than the Nikons, because of sensor size alone. I would also assume that the sensor is quite similar to late generation Exmors. Dark exposure capability is another thing.

Best regards
Erik

Given what he's already found regarding its excellent high ISO shadow detail (beating the D800E at full res, and the D4 when downsampled to match MP), and now these long exposure dark noise results (several times better than the D800E, apparently), the 645Z would appear to be the current most suitable single-shot-colour astro camera.

I'd be thrilled about that, and saving my cents for one, if only it could reach infinity with M645 lenses! But alas that's impossible, and there's nothing in the Pentax lineup to correspond to must-haves like my 24/4 fisheye, 80/1.9, 200/2.8 APO...it's been said many times that the only real weak point of the Pentax MFD option is the lens range, and I fully concur. Meanwhile, the IQ250 is way out of my budget.

Phamiya: got the lenses, can't afford the CMOS sensor. Pentax: can afford the CMOS sensor, doesn't have the lenses.  :-[

What I need is someone to build an A7R-like (better still, an X-T1 like) short-flange mirrorless body using the 645Z sensor!
And just think of the other possibilities, such as Hartblei/Alpa-FPS style use of 35mm lenses on a medium format sensor  ;D.

Ray
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