Thoughts on Sony's MF sensor strategy

[chrismuc]

Some thoughts on Sony entering the MF sensor market.
If I would be Sony, I would try to sell as many sensors as possible, especially as there is so little competition.
Ok, step one was to offer their CMOS 44x33mm 50MP sensor to Pentax, Hasselblad and Phase for their cameras and backs. Pentax is very reasonably priced but not so popular. Hasselblad is already rather expensive and also a low volume system. Phase is popular and very versatile but prohibitively expensive which limits the sales quantity.

IMO Sony easily could develop and produce a MF back with their 44x33mm CMOS with different mount options (Phamiya, Hasselblad H, Hasselblad V, Contax, Rollei ...) as a direct competitor to Phase and offer it for let's say EUR 6.000.
And in a second step they could produce a real 645 format version with 54x40.5mm (or even 56x41.5mm:-) sensor size and +/- 80 MP for maybe EUR 10.000.
That would dramatically shake the MF market and promote sales of all 645 format mirror reflex, mirrorless and tech cams.

Am I dreaming or could that be Sony's MF roadmap?

[AndreasSchmidt]

Well, are the mounts free? No patents?

Second - Sony has NO professional service in their photo department (they have with their professional video systems). That might be true with Pentax too - but Hasselblad, Phase and Leaf have their strength exactly there (besides the backs, cameras and so on). Building up such service is extremely expensive - and Sony is short of money (not the sensor department, but whole company). But without such service there is no entrance to professional market. This would leave such backs for amateurs - not bad at all. But for most amateurs even prices as given by you are "a bit" high... It still would be a small market.

So I do not see this option now - but Sony is always good for surprises :-)

Andreas - like the idea of a 80MP-Sony back at my Hy6...

[Paul2660]

I would be surprised if Sony took that step, creation of a digital back.  More likely they will create their own system, either a range finder like the old Mamiya 7 or a solution with lenses. 

If Sony created a digital back, say for Phase One, to work on the DF or DF+, I can already see a problem with the support between the back and camera (there are already enough issues between Phase One and Mamyia on the DF+/IQ Backs), see past posts on firmware upgrades on the DF+. 

If Sony just made the back, the support issues would become possibly even more confusing and problematic as you would have to work with Phase One and Sony, separately to trouble shoot an issue possibly. 

Where Sony would have a real key marketing advantage, would be to take their mirrorless technology and come out with a camera with the current MF sensor. 

We may see some ideas of where they are going in September at Photokina.

Paul

[jduncan]

I would be surprised if Sony took that step, creation of a digital back.  More likely they will create their own system, either a range finder like the old Mamiya 7 or a solution with lenses. 

If Sony created a digital back, say for Phase One, to work on the DF or DF+, I can already see a problem with the support between the back and camera (there are already enough issues between Phase One and Mamyia on the DF+/IQ Backs), see past posts on firmware upgrades on the DF+. 

If Sony just made the back, the support issues would become possibly even more confusing and problematic as you would have to work with Phase One and Sony, separately to trouble shoot an issue possibly. 

Where Sony would have a real key marketing advantage, would be to take their mirrorless technology and come out with a camera with the current MF sensor. 

We may see some ideas of where they are going in September at Photokina.

Paul

Totally agree with you. Entering MF now will be entering a mess.
They may do it, but it makes no sense.
 
In good theory the future is mirror-less. Not because is lighter (the otus and the Sigma  50mm tell an eloquent story) but because they have less  moving parts, are more versatile, allows for more advanced autofocus systems, and with bad lenses that do not exploit  the sensor they are lighter (marketing ploy).

So if Sony want to introduce a camera with the MF sensor it will be better to create some kind of A series like  camera. The machine could have excellent autofocusing Zeiss lenses, extra big digital viewfinder, modern autofocus (hybrid with in sensor autofocusing) and a good price.

I can see a machine like that creating a new marked and synergies for the rest of the Sony camera line.

Best regards,
J. Duncan

[BernardLanguillier]

I wouldn't be surprised if they unleashed soon a camera a la RX1 with a fixed 35mm f2.8 equivalent Zeiss lens and the 50mp sensor.

This would differentiate them clearly and would be a logical continuation of their strategy, which consists in releasing the smallest possible camera with each sensor size.

Cheers,
Bernard

[michael]

I happen to think that Bernard has the most accurate perspective. Making an MF back or MF camera system just isn't something that Sony would have any interest in. Smart companies play on their strength, not their weaknesses. MF is a declining segment, not a growing one.

What are Sony's strengths? Sensors? Check. High res EVFs? Check. Availability of Zeiss designed and branded lenses? Check. Ability to productize miniaturization? Check. Appeal to the high end amateur market? Check.

Therefore it doesn't take having a Sony product planner as a drinking buddy to figure out that a likely product for Photokina introduction in September would be a fixed lens, pocketable MF camera.

Michael

[Doug Peterson]

I agree with Michael and Bernard regarding the low chance sony making a competitor to Phase/Hassy, and the reasonable chance they would make some form of all-in-one pocket camera.

[eronald]

I agree with Michael and Bernard regarding the low chance sony making a competitor to Phase/Hassy, and the reasonable chance they would make some form of all-in-one pocket camera.

Sony may not make, but I agree with Bernard that their semiconductor division will encourage the appearance of boutique cameras with Sony sensors.

Edmund

[bcooter]

Therefore it doesn't take having a Sony product planner as a drinking buddy to figure out that a likely product for Photokina introduction in September would be a fixed lens, pocketable MF camera.

Today the pro cameras of choice seem to be a nikon or Canon . . . and an Iphone.

Anything else is just rented.

I'm not one to rent stuff . . . actually hate renting stuff for a number of reasons, but the generation hot on my heels is all carrying a d800 or 5d3, a battery powered profoto and a macbook for their total kit.

If by chance a big job comes in they just call one of the dozen or so tech companies and rent it all then let someone else carry the overhead and do the heavy lifting of processing and retouching.

So for sony to make anything in the pro ranks like a blad or a phase wouldn't even show up on their balance sheet.

Now if they make a lower cost 5d2/d800 killer then they might sell, though most people already have an investment in canon or nikon glass.

That's why I think the A series will be a big hit.  Two bodies, one for some b roll video and one for high rez stills you can use you legacy glass on for the price of a used p30 is hard to ignore.

IMO


BC

[SecondFocus]

One thing that I always come back to in a discussion about Sony is their lack of professional customer support. Canon, Nikon, Phase One, Leaf, Hasselblad, Leica all have people you can reach out and get assistance and/or specific professional support programs. Also dealer networks that are in the business of providing professional support. That for me is a big consideration if I were to consider a Sony product for being primary gear for my work.

[bcooter]

One thing that I always come back to in a discussion about Sony is their lack of professional customer support. Canon, Nikon, Phase One, Leaf, Hasselblad, Leica all have people you can reach out and get assistance and/or specific professional support programs. Also dealer networks that are in the business of providing professional support. That for me is a big consideration if I were to consider a Sony product for being primary gear for my work.

When I first noticed a Sony presence was at Photo East I think 7 years ago.  They had aps c cameras, but the start of an interesting series of Zeiss lenses.

I had the feeling that this was just the beginning and given their size, expertise and range, Sony could become the #2 camera of choice for professionals and serious enthusiasts, maybe even #1.

Then they took years before they got to full frame and today don't have a full frame camera that will track focus for sports, which is interesting because they are sponsoring the world cup and every photographer is wearing an orange sony vest, but shooting mostly with a Canon and then Nikon.

To me that's just very strange.

So, it makes me assume that Sony is a consumer electronics company . . . like Apple only with more product.   They open up stores in most of the major metro markets and then boom, close them.

I think they are innovative, obviously could make virtually anything and make it very well, but for some reason they get close then just kind of stop, like a kid getting uninterested with a toy.

Or maybe they don't see immediate results so that drives their decision.

It's interesting, given they're sensors seem to be in every camera made, except Canon.

They're a company who makes products you want to like, usually very well constructed and with style, but with still cameras there is always that one glaring omission.  

As I mentioned a series of cameras like the A series is perfect for todays professional work.   One camera for stills, another for motion, same lens set, accepts other makers lenses, but for video the 7s has no in camera stabilization, is 8 bit, no touch screen, somewhat hit and miss focusing and compared to other Sony cameras, not the most robust feel.  

It's so strange and so close to being not just good, but magnificent.      

IMO

BC

[Transposure]

When I first noticed a Sony presence was at Photo East I think 7 years ago.  They had aps c cameras, but the start of an interesting series of Zeiss lenses.

I had the feeling that this was just the beginning and given their size, expertise and range, Sony could become the #2 camera of choice for professionals and serious enthusiasts, maybe even #1.

Then they took years before they got to full frame and today don't have a full frame camera that will track focus for sports, which is interesting because they are sponsoring the world cup and every photographer is wearing an orange sony vest, but shooting mostly with a Canon and then Nikon.

To me that's just very strange.

So, it makes me assume that Sony is a consumer electronics company . . . like Apple only with more product.   They open up stores in most of the major metro markets and then boom, close them.

I think they are innovative, obviously could make virtually anything and make it very well, but for some reason they get close then just kind of stop, like a kid getting uninterested with a toy.

Or maybe they don't see immediate results so that drives their decision.

It's interesting, given they're sensors seem to be in every camera made, except Canon.

They're a company who makes products you want to like, usually very well constructed and with style, but with still cameras there is always that one glaring omission.  

As I mentioned a series of cameras like the A series is perfect for todays professional work.   One camera for stills, another for motion, same lens set, accepts other makers lenses, but for video the 7s has no in camera stabilization, is 8 bit, no touch screen, somewhat hit and miss focusing and compared to other Sony cameras, not the most robust feel.  

It's so strange and so close to being not just good, but magnificent.      

IMO

BC

Russell hit the nail on the head.  I have noticed this same trend with Sony.  A friend and I thought the same thing 7 years ago and we've witnessed Sony's growth to a strong consumer presence with their DSLR's, but that last 10-15% of effort to make them a true pro player hasn't happened.  The interesting thing about the 7 year old prediction also had to do with the supply of their sensors to Nikon.  In consideration of this, it would seem that Sony is in a potentially devastating position to Nikon.  Of course there are legal agreements in place protecting/preserving Nikon's interests in receipt of the sensors for their camera line, but I have found it odd that Sony exists on the same consumer playing field as Nikon (pro level excepted) and they use the same sensors.  If Sony decided it didn't want to honor its commitment to supply sensors or renegotiations at the end of the contractual term didn't pan out as expected, Nikon would be In a world of hurt and Sony would quickly become #2 with a big legal case as well.  But I digress.
As for medium format chips from Sony, I agree with Michael and Doug as it makes the most reasonable and rational business sense.  It is great to hope as consumers of these products that they would infuse some competition into the market and thus lower competitor's prices across the board, but this is a very small (arguable minuscule) market segment.  However, the mere fact that we are here discussing this, is indicative of the fact that there is a desire.  Trends start suddenly or sometimes involve a slow burn.  The most recent notable and prolific trend in the photography market was the introduction of the Canon 5D Mark 2, with its video capabilities.  Thanks in part to the dissemination of Vincent Laforet's "Reverie" video, the entire DSLR video market segment was spawned almost overnight.  So, why is this profound?  Well, let's assume that most photographers (advanced amateurs and pros alike) strive to produce the best end product (photos/video) possible and aside from the improvement in their own abilities, they look to better gear for the edge.  They aspire to be better.  I know I do.  We saw how the market moved (more slowly as compared to the overnight DSLR video trend) from APS-C sensors and the like to more common full frame.  (I have personally only used full frame from 1999).  This was a slow trend.  Who is to say that Pentax's new Z at it's very reasonable cost of entry doesn't initiate a new trend.  Full frame pros finally able to get an affordable upgrade to provide an "edge".  Could that be the event that lowers prices across the MFD board?  Can/will Sony respond with an interchangeable lens system to compete since they have already spent the big cost in that production (sensor).  It is likely not the case, since the image circle to cover the larger sensors would require a new line of lenses and that is a large production cost as well.  In addition, since Sony now has agreements with PO and Hassy, I would bet the farm that both of those agreements have "non-compete" clauses.  So, again, not likely.
Although the DSLR market has matured for the most part, it seems to be interesting times for the MFD market, with the low cost of the new Pentax and Sony's heart (sensor) being implanted in the Phase and Hassy backs as well.  Interesting times.
I will be very interested to see what happens at Photokina.  I am not a gear hound, but will typically invest in the best quality I can afford and justify from a business-use perspective.  I always aspire to be better and maybe the proliferation of these larger sensors is the next trend and that will be good for everyone...

Ken
www.transposure.com

[BernardLanguillier]

Ken,

This far off topic, but:
- Sony semi conductor would probably not have invested in FF Exmor technology if they hadn't had nikon to sell a large number of bodies equipped with these sensors,
- Sony semi-conductor is a different company than Sony imaging, with its own objectives in terms of profitability. It is probably more profitable for them to sell sensors to Nikon. Structuring a group in different legal entities has value but also possible downsides,
- Most of the recent Nikon APS-C bodies use Toshiba sensors with performance very close to that of Sony,
- At least the D4s comes with a non Sony FF sensor.

So overall, it seems that Nikon is very unlikely to be in any kind of serious trouble from a sensor standpoint.

Besides Canon has been far behind the curve for years sensorwise with little impact on their business, so sensors don't seem that important anymore for the majority of the market. We see things differently, but LL crowd represents probably around 0.001% of the market.

Overall, the reality is that most SLR users are casual photographers will never change brand because of their lenses and the cost of migration relative to their disposable income.

Cheers,
Bernard

[chrismuc]

That's what I was thinking: If Sony semi-conductor devision develops a high res 24x36 CMOS sensor, they must have sufficient quantities in mind, therefore selling it to Nikon and using it by Sony camera devision makes perfectly sense.

But developing a MF size version of such sensor and only selling it to Pentax, Hasselblad and Phase does IMO not generate enough business to legitimate their investment into such development.

Now what are the options to enhance sales numbers? Like others mentioned, that could be a Sony MF mirrorless camera or similar by e.g. Fuji. I agree that Sony has no history in professional photography and has no professional worldwide service but just looking at the market potential, I guess they could sell five, ten or twenty times more MF sensors with own backs (at the sub 10k price tag) than OEMing to Pentax, Hasselblad and Phase together. And for my feeling, it would be a much smaller risk for Sony to release MF backs only than to invent a completely new mirrorless MF camera or camera system (new mount, lenses ...).

But I agree, that MF back story might not happen ...

[jduncan]

I happen to think that Bernard has the most accurate perspective. Making an MF back or MF camera system just isn't something that Sony would have any interest in. Smart companies play on their strength, not their weaknesses. MF is a declining segment, not a growing one.

What are Sony's strengths? Sensors? Check. High res EVFs? Check. Availability of Zeiss designed and branded lenses? Check. Ability to productize miniaturization? Check. Appeal to the high end amateur market? Check.

Therefore it doesn't take having a Sony product planner as a drinking buddy to figure out that a likely product for Photokina introduction in September would be a fixed lens, pocketable MF camera.

Michael

As stated before I agree  with this perspective, with a tiny difference I will expect interchangeable lenses. A fixed lens will limit the utility of the camera, in particular for vogue and similar.

Could you elaborate a little more why you believe a fixed lens is the correct (or maybe just the most probable) route for Sony?

Best regards,
J. Duncan

[eronald]

Although offtopic, I have a remark: If (when) Sony decide to stop making sensors for still cameras, there go Nikon.

And Sony has after a few years abandoned just about any market they've been in except pro video.


Edmund

[BernardLanguillier]

Although offtopic, I have a remark: If (when) Sony decide to stop making sensors for still cameras, there go Nikon.

And Sony has after a few years abandoned just about any market they've been in except pro video.

And:
- TVs
- gaming hardware and software,
- audio equipment (mobile or not),
- ...

They have been losing billions of US$ on some of those and have not given up yet. Why would they want to stop producing money generating imaging sensors?

Cheers,
Bernard

[michael]

I think any discussion of a possible Sony MF back is so much fairy dust. It just isn't going to happen. I could go on about interface issue, interoperability, and such, but really.... it just is neither practical nor good business sense.

Designing a fixed lens camera is a simpler task, put on a custom medium wide and it can be quite pocketable. Put on an interchangeable mount and now the lens sizes are larger, and more to the point you need to create a whole lens echosphere.

Michael

[eronald]

I think any discussion of a possible Sony MF back is so much fairy dust. It just isn't going to happen. I could go on about interface issue, interoperability, and such, but really.... it just is neither practical nor good business sense.

Designing a fixed lens camera is a simpler task, put on a custom medium wide and it can be quite pocketable. Put on an interchangeable mount and now the lens sizes are larger, and more to the point you need to create a whole lens echosphere.

Michael

Yes, interchangeable lensboard view cameras need larger bellows
It's a live-view iPad world now ...
I just wish someone would come along and prove us all wrong by thinking outside of the box.
Sony seems as likely as anybody to do this, as they have both the ability and no existing product line to protect.

Edmund

[Paul2660]

Although offtopic, I have a remark: If (when) Sony decide to stop making sensors for still cameras, there go Nikon.

And Sony has after a few years abandoned just about any market they've been in except pro video.


Edmund

I don't think Nikon wouldn't blink an eye if Sony stopped making sensors. They would just step up their own production or find a similar sensor like the one in the D4s.

Paul