Descriptions of paper-100 % cotton, cotton linters, acid-free,wood pulp, etc.

[shadowblade]

You are not telling me anything that I don't know. Also many papers are bleached prior to coating with anything.

My point was Canson is using pigment brighteners in Place of OBAS in their matt rag papers. By all fade tests they are outperforming  all the other matte media that do use modest amounts of oba like Hahnemuhle, Ilford, etc, which themselves are not bad and  Canson is just as bright as those papers. And yes it is all proprietary and if they say they don't use any dye brighteners  in Rag Photographique etc, I believe them unless I have some reason not to.

My question was why isn't Canson or someone else using these same pigment brighteners in gloss fiber inkjet media?

They are - every baryta paper uses pigment brighteners (in the form of a baryta layer), while some non-baryta papers (e.g. Canson Platine Rag) also use pigment brighteners, as a layer behind the inkjet receptive layer.

[deanwork]

Maybe some of  the various fiber gloss papers have titanium white or something in the baryta ( clay ) layer. If they do it's  not much. IF so this is the first I've heard of it and Canson never mentions it in their literature. However, regardless if they do or don't, they are still using dye obas as the primary brightening agent of the paper. If you don't believe me look at them under a black light, they will glow. Canson matte rag papers and Breathing Color Lyve canvas both do not glow because there are no dye brighteners in them, yet they are plenty bright for most purposes.

j

[Colorwave]

Cotton linters does not mean "some" cotton.  They are an industrial byproduct of the cotton manufacturing process, made of the short fibers that are unsuitable for making your wife beater or tighty whitey underwear.  Fine art paper does not need long fibers like those required for garment manufacture.  I think that it is actually a good selling point, in that the paper is using a material that would otherwise be considered waste, much like the bamboo and (formerly) sugar cane pulp that Hahnemuhle uses or used.  As long as the end product, the paper, is not compromised by their use (which I understand it is not), it's a green and a good thing.

[hugowolf]

My question was why isn't Canson or someone else using these same pigment brighteners in gloss fiber inkjet media?

That depends on what you mean by 'gloss fiber'. Canson Platine, for example, uses white carbon black as a whitening agent, and the spectral reflectance plots of several papers show the possible use of titanium dioxide.

In general, I would imagine is less expensive and easier to use fluorescing dyes than minerals, which in the add mix could have effects on the structural integrity of the paper or surface coating.

Brian A

[Alan Goldhammer]

In general, I would imagine is less expensive and easier to use fluorescing dyes than minerals, which in the add mix could have effects on the structural integrity of the paper or surface coating.

....and we have a winner of the quiz!  Dyes are much cheaper to use to get maximum brightness.  It's why they are commonly used in the manufacture of inexpensive Xerox and other office print paper (usually marketed as bright white).  It's easier to formulate compared to inorganic brightening agents.

[deanwork]

Yes of course it's cheaper and easier to formulate. And that is why they have used them in practically all silver papers since the 50s.  However, Canson has done very well marketing and selling their expensive matte papers, and I for one has spent a fortune on them.

It is very true that there are all kinds of the silver print clone attempts out there with various properties and some work better with certain inks than others.

I've tried them all and have settled on the Hahnemuhle Fine Art Pearl and sometimes the oba free Hahnemuhle Photorag Pearl. I would prefer to use the photorag pearl for most things but my clients just find it too warm. These surfaces work ideally with the inks I use. 

....and we have a winner of the quiz!  Dyes are much cheaper to use to get maximum brightness.  It's why they are commonly used in the manufacture of inexpensive Xerox and other office print paper (usually marketed as bright white).  It's easier to formulate compared to inorganic brightening agents.

[dgillilan]

Alan,
I also have decided on Hahnemuhle Photo Rag Pearl as my go-to "glossy" paper. I made this decision based on no obas used and is 100% cotton paper, and I love the texture. I have done testing and developed custom icc profiles for it and am truly happy with my results.
I have decided to go with Innova IFA22 Soft Texture Art 315 gsm (100% cotton paper) as my go to matte paper for texture and will use Crane Museo Max 250gsm for my lower weight matte paper, still has texture but less thickness. Have NOT been able to determine whether the Museo Max has wood pulp or lignin in it, the literature from Crane is somewhat vague and evasive on this.  Not sure it is 100% cotton.
Thanks, Debra

[Alan Goldhammer]

Have NOT been able to determine whether the Museo Max has wood pulp or lignin in it, the literature from Crane is somewhat vague and evasive on this.  Not sure it is 100% cotton.
Thanks, Debra

Crane no longer manufacture the paper stock for Museo.  Museo Max is all cotton as are all their papers.  Problem with Museo Portfolio Rag which is the heavier weight of Museo Max is that it performs poorly in the Aardenburg light fastness studies.  It's too bad as it is really a nice matte paper.  I've pretty much switched over to Hahnemuhle Photo Rag Ultra Smooth which has I did a number of different prints for the Aardenburg study on the Epson ABW print driver.

[dgillilan]

Thanks Alan, I will do some further reading on the Museo tests in Mark's database. Thanks for the update on Museo's papers being all 100% cotton, was not sure of that. I have not used the portfolio rag papers by them and think I'll avoid them due to your experience.   I enjoy that paper test site of Mark with the great database of tests. I just need to gain a better understanding of those L values (Andrew updated me that it increases in value due to lightness of paper increasing over time), and the a and b values representations(which decrease).
Thanks again, Debra

[Ernst Dinkla]

In older threads I have seen the "White Carbon Black" described as a fine white sand which makes me wonder why it should have the Carbon association. More likely an alumina, silicon or titanium relation then. I see Silicon Dioxide powder mentioned as WCB in ads. Kaolin is a cheaper and a more complex mineral based on alumina + silicon. There are more. The main true carbon component in an inkjet paper is the cellulose paper base which can be very white depending on its purity.

Whatever paper components are used there are more OBA free papers with a high white reflectivity and less than Lab b 2 warmth. For example in the Cotton Smooth Fine art category: Bergger, Canson, Moab, Museo, Premier. Small differences there too, the Moab more likely using a TiO2 whitening agent that absorbs UV more. Could be as subtle as the TiO2 anatase versus rutile crystal form or the SiO2 addition in other papers next to TiO2, the SiO2 UV absorption is shifted more to shorter wavelengths, higher frequencies.

Without scientific spectrometers it will be very difficult to check exactly which whitening agents or blends of them are used in inkjet papers. The crystal forms can be different too. If a paper has to have a neutral or cold white reflection it can not really be done without an OBA. Adding blue colorants or changing the spectral distribution otherwise to achieve a similar effect decreases the total white reflection. In some cases you can see in SpectrumViz that OBA free papers with the same spectral reflectivity at the blue/shorter wavelength side differ on the warmer side of the spectral distribution which gives them a near neutral white but also a slight drop in total reflection.

On satin, gloss, fiber/baryta cotton papers with high white reflection, OBA free: if you check the Jon Cone Type 5 spectral plot the total white reflection exceeds that of the matte Canson Rag Photographique, Lab 98.1 -0.1 2.6 versus Lab 97.6 0.1 1.8 and the last suits my  spectrometer better than the glossier Type 5 so the difference should be higher in practice. Indicates to me mineral whitening agents added. The Canson slightly more neutral as its warm side reflection is lower. That applies even more to the Canson Platine compared to the Type 5.

RC papers without OBA are rare, they all have a polyethylene barrier with TiO2 whitening agent. The proofing papers usually have less OBA and the Epson Proofing White Semi-Matte is among the best then with still a high white reflection. Warm white though but with a big gamut. No wonder the Epson ads praise the gamut of the x900 printer models based on prints with that paper. Ideal for an image with strawberries in a basket. Which has been a favorite image at the introduction of any new color imaging technology if I have to believe the history books. Off topic now.

--
Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
April 2014, 600+ inkjet media white spectral plots.

[dgillilan]

Thank you Mr. Dinkla, for more information on the OBAs and types of them. I have studied your site with the spectral plots and will continue to study your site and Mark's site and others that help me to understand more technical aspects of print papers and specs,

Debra