Carbon Pigment Transfer Process - Permanence

[deanwork]

Just saw some of Todd Gangler's modern pigment prints made through the process of exposing each layer separately via cymk film emulsion separations and transferring that to a polyester sheet then on to  a stain fiber art paper.

They were about 20x30 inches and quite nice and held a tonal separation in the low values and shadows that reminded me more of a multi-layer silk-screen kind of translucence than a pigment inkjet print. Of course they cost a LOT to have made and he's usually backed up for 6 months. It is basically the same principle as dye transfer but with stable pigments.

What I was curious about is whether anyone knows if unbiased fade tests have been done on them and if so where they come out, compared to Canon Lucia and HP Vivera prints on non-oba media.

Here is the site if you haven't heard of it - http://www.colorcarbonprint.com

He might be the only guy left in the country doing this.

John

[MHMG]

Sounds like a variant of the "Evercolor pigment print process" that had a brief moment in digital printmaking history back in the 1990s in the sense that the pigmented gelatin layers were being transferred and bonded to a polyester (PET) base unlike historical carbon pigment processes that used a paper support. Charles Berger also offered a carbon color print process called "Ultrastable" but I seem to recall the Ultrastable gelatin layers were transferred to a paper support rather than PET with the Ultrastable print process (my memory may be faulty on that score). Anyway,  the use of a polyester base provides a high physical dimensional stability that helps make the color channel registration process work well, but it also becomes the achilles heel down the road in terms of fragility of the print to cracking/delamination. Great care must be taken with these relatively thick gelatin pigment layers on polyester base (i.e., thicker than Iflochrome aka Cibachrome emulsions on PET base) to keep humidity cycling to a minimum, i.e. no high (>60%RH) to low (<35%RH) transitions otherwise high mechanical stress levels in the gelatin layers occurring in the high to low RH transition will literally crack and delaminate them from the hydrophilic polyester layer in relatively few harsh seasonal summer/winter humidity cycles common in cold northern climates.

As you also are probably well aware of by now, pigment colorants are generally more stabile than dye-based colorants, but some pigments are clearly much more stable than others (e.g., Van Gogh's choice of chromium yellow has deteriorated significantly from a bright yellow to an ochre yellow over time, Epson's pigmented yellow is also a significantly weak link in the Ultrachrome ink set family, K3, K3VM, HDR, and ConeColor pigment sets have a weak magenta pigment). So, with respect to overall light fade resistance in comparison to other modern digital print processes, this carbon pigment process would need to be fade tested. I don't see any indication on the website that any such testing was ever performed. Which means the assumption is that the print is light fast simply because it's pigment rather than dye, but the devil is always in the details.

best,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com

[deanwork]

Yes Mark,

That is interesting. If the polyester separation matrix film doesn't stand the test of time, what's the point really.

It seems like it is the same principle as the Evercolor work, if not the same pigments then probably very similar. Don't know. I also remember big marketing statements by the guys at Evercolor that their process was the most stable photographic print in existence, but like you, I never remember them having any formal tests done. It is all dependent on the colorants and media used. Having said that, the old 19th century carbro process transferred from tissue paper to printmaking paper seem to have held up very well.

I'm doing some work now for a well known photographer from Ny who was just amazed at the test results of the HP Vivera inks on  the best Canon and Hahnemuhle media. None of these art buyers and galleries have any idea what the differences are.  What really shocks people is when I show them your tests of the Ilford Gallerie gelatin silver  papers that have such poor quality brighteners that they are turning gray in no time. All this lightjet to gelatin silver stuff is being marketed as the gold standard when in reality it is lagging far behind all the major oem grayscale inkjet prints.

[TylerB]

hi john, Todd did indeed work with Charles Berger but his carbon transfers on done onto fine cotton art papers like Fabriano, which should avoid the substrate problems mention, of course as Mark mentions it's in the details. Todd does beautiful work and is highly accomplished.
Nope, many of the galleries, even in the big apple, remain clueless.

[deanwork]

Maybe that paper that Burk Uzzle had his stuff printed on was the Fabriano. I'll ask him. It was a beautiful paper with rich color gamut but softer in appearance than the fiber gloss stuff we've been using for inkjet. It remind me of the old Agfa fiber type C papers back in the day, not glossy and reflective but not matte rag either. It allowed you to look into the rich shadows without any distraction.

[TylerB]

I dropped in and looked at some of Tod's work again just recently, I think the gelatin (or whatever the carrier is) itself carrying the pigment imparts that slight sheen, you can see i at the image edges.

[deanwork]

Oh ok, I see. It certainly is a unique surface.

[John Nollendorfs]

Looking at Todd's site, he claims that Wilhelm has tested his prints to a 500 year life  before "noticeable fading or staining". For what it's worth, Mark! ;-)

[deanwork]

That's good. And he rates the paper and ink I am using, Canson Rag Photographique with Vivera inks and uv filter at >450 years for color.

And I'm a whole lot cheaper :-).

But dark storage is only >250 years so, don't keep them in the dark…..

http://www.wilhelm-research.com/Canson/canson_infinity.html

john

Looking at Todd's site, he claims that Wilhelm has tested his prints to a 500 year life  before "noticeable fading or staining". For what it's worth, Mark! ;-)