Portland shooting

[BernardLanguillier]

Fascinating debate.

I guess that many US parents will unfortunately have to continue fearing for the life of their kids a bit longer while others continue to enjoy the idea of having the power to kill thanks to their steel sex toys.

When I was a kid our closest neighbour had a gun license and was storing a handgun and shot gun at home. He gave me the opportunity to shoot with his automatic handgun a couple of times in their garage without my parents knowing (a 9mm if I recall correctly). I was probably 12. I was pretty good at it, not to say excellent.

I would think that I belong to a tiny minority of Belgians my age who have ever used a gun loaded with real bullets, a few meters away from an adult that would have died had I decided to turn the gun at him.

I quickly decided to turn down my neighbours invitations to go shoot his concrete wall though.

Not that I didn't like the act of shooting. I realised that I was very uncomfortable with the relationship our neighbour had with his guns. I read the Lord of the rings a few months later by chance and, although I did of course understand that the ring was mostly the symbol of money and power, it did a good job a describing the relationship my neighbour had with his "precious" guns.

I know, he is just one guy and the other gun owners are different.

Cheers,
Bernard

[john beardsworth]

Not that I didn't like the act of shooting. I realised that I was very uncomfortable with the relationship our neighbour had with his guns.

Probably the way he rubbed them? To polish them, of course.

John

[john beardsworth]

No-one here has said anyone's afraid to send their kids to school. After all, these shootings always happen somewhere else, and it's always a weirdo or loner. Most of the US does indeed feel blissfully safe (not joking there) and it'll never happen in Scottsdale, so why worry? Just give the teachers weapons training. What's crazy about that?

[BernardLanguillier]

The condescension is becoming insulting.

I present U my apologies then.

Cheers,
Bernard

P.s.: my neighbour past away many years ago. He was overall a very normal person, a nice guy, had 2 nice kids, a Toyota, worked in a major bank, liked barbecues, beer and good jokes. He had no other place than his garage to practise his hobby, I wouldn't read too much in that part of the story.

[john beardsworth]

Some Israelis need to be armed because they're fighting for the territory. It's a totally different situation.

[Manoli]

I'm in favour of tasteless humour, specially when it pokes fun at the sort of arguments that regularly get trotted out to excuse a society, that manages to kill so many of its children, with oh so chilling regularity

A Duh! egg-on-my-face moment and perhaps a warning to myself not to post too early in the morning.
Apologies.

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

... The first thing a dictatorship is going to do is strip the citizens of their guns.

Isn't that EXACTLY the reason gun owners here are against ANY restrictions in gun ownership, however small and reasonable they might be, as it might start a boiling-the-frog process?

...Those who hide and secret their arms away will be spread out, untrained, have practically no sources of ammunition resupply on what is essentially a huge island and hopelessly outclassed by regular military never mind that every shooter having different guns and different calibers of ammunition is a joke in a combat situation....Similar to the resistance/terrorist forces in occupied territories of Europe during the past century....

Not quite so, depending of national mentality and circumstances. The way you described above is how it actually happened in Yugoslavia during WWII, when partisans started with absolutely nothing and ended with a formidable army capable of fighting vastly superior Germans for four years, to the point of liberating its whole territory practically alone. There are many more examples like this throughout history. True, small, isolated uprising usually stands no chance against a government. However, with enough motivation behind it, many small, isolated uprisings grow surprisingly fast, arming itself along the way by ambushing regular forces. Soon cracks start to appear in the government forces, ideological desertion, whole units switching sides, new alliances are made, foreign or domestic, etc. (isn't that what just happened in Ukraine?)

...But heck what do I know, I've never been in the States and don't intend to be yet another patronising European armchair know it all comparing the US to countries with vastly different mentalities, education, histories and government control and most of all a tiny fraction of the population of the US.

Amen, brother!

[Ligament]

The right to keep and bear arms to defend ourselves against a tyrannical government, and also to defend ourselves against mortal harm, is the keystone of America. We emerged from tyrannical British rule, and without small arms that emergence would never have happened. We keep our politicians in check (to a degree) by fear of armed revolt.

Most non-Americans cannot comprehend this, as you will never have the possibility to bear arms against your tyrannical government.

Also, most non-Americans think a simple click of the fingers and all privately owned firearms will disappear from circulation in America. THAT CANNOT HAPPEN. There are estimated to be up to 300 million privately owned firearms in US circulation. No matter how hard you try, these guns will always be in circulation, and WILL ALWAYS BE AVAILABLE TO CRIMINALS, but not law-abiding citizens if made illegal.

The school shootings are a product of media sensationalism providing sick minds with a quick means to notoriety and fame. Doing a school shooting is the surest and quickest means to national fame in this country.

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

... The school shootings are a product of media sensationalism providing sick minds with a quick means to notoriety and fame. Doing a school shooting is the surest and quickest means to national fame in this country.

Indeed. What we need is a total ban on... media coverage of such events (other than generic info). No purp name, no picture, no interview with relatives, friends and neighbors.

Instead, a total coverage of victims, with their names, pictures, interviews and eulogies. That would nip in the bud any idiot who plans to "immortalize" himself, when he realizes all he is going to achieve is make his victims famous, while he is disappearing into a total darkness. But, alas, that won't happen either.

[Ligament]

I've never quite understood the 'tyrannical government' argument. The first thing a dictatorship is going to do is strip the citizens of their guns. Happened in Germany in '38 I believe. Those who hide and secret their arms away will be spread out, untrained, have practically no sources of ammunition resupply on what is essentially a huge island and hopelessly outclassed by regular military never mind that every shooter having different guns and different calibers of ammunition is a joke in a combat situation. Even then, um, didn't the last time the South try to gain independence from a government whose policies they disagreed with, go really badly? With fully mechanised arms and modern technology the militias and individuals would not stand a chance at being anything more than a nuisance to any government, lethal nuisance perhaps but nothing more. Similar to the resistance/terrorist forces in occupied territories of Europe during the past century.

To be honest I don't personally believe that guns are the problem. I work at present in a city (Jerusalem) where every street has people walking along with fully automatic assault rifles and many carry pistols. This is due to compulsory army service and the terrorist situation. Every school and mall has armed guards. Strangely enough the civil murders with firearms are almost non existent. My brother in law in Switzerland keeps his army assault weapon at home. So do most apparently. Still a lack of massacres. I don't think the guns are the problem. It's attitude to guns which is the issue. But heck what do I know, I've never been in the States and don't intend to be yet another patronising European armchair know it all comparing the US to countries with vastly different mentalities, education, histories and government control and most of all a tiny fraction of the population of the US.

I know you don't think guns are the problem. Agree with you.

You are correct a dictatorial government will attempt to strip citizens of firearms. THAT IS ALREADY STARTING HERE under the tyrannical Obama regime - but failing. It is has been largely ineffective. Given the knowledge American's have of prior British rule and the absolute necessity to be able to arm ourselves against tyrannical rule, en masse confiscation is highly unlikely to gain traction.

Also, you are incorrect about low supplies of ammunition in such circumstances, many many responsible gun owners in this country stock over 10,000 or more rounds per caliber of weapon they own.

You are incorrect when you state "With fully mechanised arms and modern technology the militias and individuals would not stand a chance at being anything more than a nuisance to any government." Please research Afganistan, which has defeated USSR and USA invasions using 60-100 year old firearms. Research the American Revolution in which we Americans were "hopelessly outclassed" by the British military. A determined and armed citizenry is the most powerful collective weapon in the world.

[john beardsworth]

Huh? Tyrannical British rule? Unjust, incompetent, hypocritical, sure, but in 18th century terms tyranny is ludicrous. You're almost as funny as Slobodan and his serf genes theory!

Better read up your history again. You only got away with independence because the French helped you out!

[rpsphoto]

I present U my apologies then.

Cheers,
Bernard

P.s.: my neighbour past away many years ago. He was overall a very normal person, a nice guy, had 2 nice kids, a Toyota, worked in a major bank, liked barbecues, beer and good jokes. He had no other place than his garage to practise his hobby, I wouldn't read too much in that part of the story.

That's a fairly accurate description of many, many law abiding Americans, many of whom own guns and use them responsibly. I personally don't like the damn things and would love to see laws in place/in force that balances responsible gun ownership with the safety of all citizens. One of the core issues in the gun control debate is ultimately individual rights -vs- society at large....that's a very, very emotional issue in the US.

[john beardsworth]

Do you have to insure your guns against misuse? So if your creepy nephew uses your guns and takes out his classmates or the neighbours, can the victims' relatives not sue you for damages? A free market approach?

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

... You're almost as funny as Slobodan and his serf genes theory!...

Says a Queen's subject

[john beardsworth]

Says a Queen's subject

And a republican. But there is a grain of truth in what you said. We may have tried one king for tyranny and thrown another out for Catholicism (as it led to tyranny), but technically Brits are indeed "subjects" and not "citizens". Still, I wonder how well your theory explains gun ownership among black Americans.

[Ligament]

Using Stinger missile launchers.

Sure, all afghani's have regular access to stingers. dream on.

[BernardLanguillier]

The right to keep and bear arms to defend ourselves against a tyrannical government, and also to defend ourselves against mortal harm, is the keystone of America. We emerged from tyrannical British rule, and without small arms that emergence would never have happened. We keep our politicians in check (to a degree) by fear of armed revolt.

Most non-Americans cannot comprehend this, as you will never have the possibility to bear arms against your tyrannical government.

Right... I see the Patriot Act and its PRISM follow ups as far overdoing the level of control the best KGB generals ever dreamed of achieving, but good for you if you feel that guns are protecting you from state tyranny.

But back to the original point, how about a referendum on gun free ownership? Wouldn't that be the best way to shut up know nothing outsiders regarding what the Americans truly want?

Cheers,
Bernard

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

... But back to the original point, how about a referendum on gun free ownership?...

Why? There are presidential elections every four years, and congressional every two years. Plenty of opportunity for candidates to get an aha! moment when reading opinions of know-nothing outsiders and realize that would be a perfect opportunity for them to get elected. After all, it is clear as day that a vast majority of Americans favor a ban on guns, so if any Joe Schmoe wants to be elected, all he is to do is to run on that platform, and victory is guaranteed, no brainer.

And even if there were a national referendum, it would be in vain, as the wise men in black capes would overturn it as unconstitutional. As is already happening with state referendums on gay marriage, where peoples' will is overturned by a few wise men in black capes.

[Justinr]

Right... I see the Patriot Act and its PRISM follow ups as far overdoing the level of control the best KGB generals ever dreamed of achieving, but good for you if you feel that guns are protecting you from state tyranny.

But back to the original point, how about a referendum on gun free ownership? Wouldn't that be the best way to shut up know nothing outsiders regarding what the Americans truly want?

Cheers,
Bernard

Quite, we might not have Orwell's grey uniformity but he wasn't far off with the total surveillance and constant war against an unseen enemy. 1984 was written as a warning, not a manual.

[Justinr]

Take recruit A, from the non-gun 'crazy' or outright hoplophobic country of your choosing. Let's call him Olaf.

Now take Johnny GI, from Ketchum, Idaho who got his first .22 rifle at age 8 and has been around guns his whole life. He's killed a dozen white-tailed deer at distances up to 400 yards in the last 5 years.

Whatever training might be applied in boot camp, Johnny will out-shoot Olaf by a mile in training and especially in combat.

If you had any idea what's required to shoot "Expert" in Marine Corps training, you'd understand that the average Olaf just can't get there, but Johnny has a legitimate chance.

But white tailed dear are so cute!