Canon 17mm or 24mm TS-E vs. Phase One 28mm for architectural project

[Transposure]

Hi Guys,
I have a question and wanted to gain some insight from architectural shooters that might have contemplated the same thing or have direct experience.  Before I ask the question, a little background...

I have a long history in photography and have shot everything possible from landscapes to fine art, from automobiles to food.  I currently own two (really 2 1/2) systems, an extensive Canon system, including 1Dx with lenses from 14mm through 600mm (including 17mm TS-E and 24mm TS-E II).  I also have a Phase One 645DF+ with a Credo 60 and an 80mm LS and 110mm LS.  I also have an RZ67ProIID with a few lenses including the 75mm shift lens (that's the 1/2...LOL).

I primarily shoot people commercially, thousands of pictures weekly.  To do that I use either the 1Dx with the 70-200mm f2.8 II or 85mm f1.2 OR the Phase One 645 DF+ with the 110mm LS.  I will routinely sync the PO system and 110mm LS at 1/1600s with the Profoto Air system to shoot f2.8 in the sun.

A small part of my business (5-10%) is comprised of architectural interiors.  Historically I have used the Canon system with either the 14mm f2.8, 17mm TS-E, or 24mm TS-E.  I am very interested in a tech cam arrangement, something like the Cambo WRS system, and would have bought in already, but the lens cost was quite literally, shocking.  Still considering it though.  My belief, is that the tech cam solution is the pinnacle of performance for architectural captures.  If my biz had more architectural work, it would have been a foregone conclusion.  But, ROI is a tough one when the architectural work quantity/income is not nearly on par with the quantity/income from the people work.

My goal, of course is to obtain the best quality capture for the architectural interior work, given the equipment I own, or through selective new purchase(s) that broaden my capabilities and make financial sense.  Why not put the Credo 60 into play with the architectural work?  Right?

So, while I contemplate the high cost of entry of a tech cam purchase, another thought came into my mind.  What about the Phase One 28mm (non-LS) lens?  How will the results of that compare to using the 14mm or 17mm or 24mmTS-E II on the 1Dx?

Thoughts?  Comments?

Thanks in advance,
Ken

[Paul2660]

I have used  both, don't own either anymore, still have the 24 TS-E II, (wish I could use it with Nikon). 

Gerald, who posts often on this site, uses the 17mm Canon with the IQ250, and Alpa FPS, with excellent results.  Hopefully he will be able to add more details.

The 28mm Non LS, is basically a great 35mm lens, (to quote Steve Hendrix from CI), and I totally agree with him.  I had 2 examples of this lens, and both were about the same.  You can expect possible smearing wide open to to around F5.6, From F5.6 up to F11, very sharp center and soft on the sides.  By F14 to F16 pretty good all the way around, but still no where as sharp on the sides as the Rodenstock 28mm.  Digital Transitions on their site, has a side by side shoot of the 28mm Phase against the 32mm Rod, (I don't believe it's the 28mm Rod).  Sample variation may allow you to find a better example of the Phase non LS version, (both the LS and non LS have the same number of groups elements and I believe are pretty much the same optic).

The 17mm Canon is a great lens, I sold mine since it was hard to adapt a filter system for, now Lee Filters has a setup that I believe allows up to 10mm of shift.  I also didn't need that wide a lens and the 24mm worked better for me. 

If you want to use the 17mm on this Credo, I believe either the Hartibei camera or the Alpa FPS will allow it. 


Paul

[esox]

I can just speak about the 28 P1 lense on P65+/645DF+. This lense is a real good one. I can't speak about the canon lenses. I never had some. I had zuiko digital pro lenses. The P1 is far above. For sure some people will find softness on edges, thay may be true, but from my personnal experience those MF lenses, Schneider, P1, Hassy lenses are playing in another world than 35mm lenses. The quality of the sensor is also for a big part of this quality, you may more think in term of system, 35mm vs MF, for me it is quite difficult to separate one part of the system to evaluate the final rendering of the image. I also adapt Hassy V lenses on my DF+ with really excellent results, the 50 CF distagon I use a lot for city landscape or architecture images, with a wonderful overall result to my eyes. Of course less crisp than a new MF dedicated lense but still wth sharpness and very subtil details. Than also could be a solution to think about. You may also find very good mamiya 645 lenses, apo or ULD. Tahy are really excellent on my 60mpix back. Depends on what you are expecting as a final IQ. Are you obsessed with crispy details ? Are you looking for general atmosphere on the picture ? Are you very demanding regarding color balance and rendering ? Do you play with bockey ? With the 28mm P1 you will have a equivalent of a 17mm 35mm lens (I supppose your credo 60mpix back has the same sensor size than mine) with very low distorsion of any sort. Straight lines, etc. You will not play hours with color balance to have something good regarding colors with your MF solution. etc

[gerald.d]

<snip>

[Paul2660]

As I stated earlier, opinions will vary widely on the 28mm P1, or Mamiya.  I used mine for almost 3 years, before I moved to the Tech camera solution.   Another though as Esox mentioned is the fact that the 29mm is around 17mm (35mm camera EQ), however I found both of mine did have considerable distortion, and since you have no rise/fall options, perspective distortion get pretty harsh.  Some can be corrected in C1 or LR, but I would rather start with as little as possible. 

Also, if you are a filter user, the P1/Mamiya 28mm is not filter friendly.  It will need some sort of solution like the Lee SW-150 for the Nikon 14-24. 

To me it's more than a bit of softness on the edges, with a 60 or 80MP sensor, it's more smearing and loss of detail.  This does go away by F16 just as diffraction starts to kick in.

If possible, try to rent one and shoot it with your Credo. 

Paul

[esox]

I'm surprised of the link given just below... I thought we were speaking about top quality images...

[gerald.d]

I'm surprised of the link given just below... I thought we were speaking about top quality images...

Do explain...

Actually, on second thoughts, no need. Clearly you don't think the link will be at all useful to someone interested in comparing the two lenses, so I'll just save everyone a lot of time and bother and delete it.

I'm sure there are plenty of other more useful resources out there that you will be able to provide links to.

[Paul2660]

Gerald,  considering your work has been featured by both Phase One and Alpa, you have no reason to pull any links.

Your nighttime panos with the 250 and 17mm are amazing.

Paul

[jerome_m]

Thoughts?  Comments?

Since you already own the 17mm TS-E and 24mm TS-E II and since interior architecture does not move, you can simply use the lenses are camera you have and do shift panoramas. This would emulate a larger sensor.

BTW: I suppose you already know that, but for shift panos with objects at small distances, it is necessary to shift the camera without moving the lens. So you'll need a macro rail or something similar.

[Transposure]

Hi Guys,
Thanks everyone for your contributions.

I have been reading up on the Alpa FPS and it seems, at least on the surface, a very compelling solution to someone in my shoes.

I want to refine the constraints of my needs to potentially have more refined opinions and recommendations.

Own all the Canon stuff.
Own the Credo
Shoot mostly people in commercial applications.
Shoot minimal architectural interiors (currently ONLY high-end residential interiors)
Do not shoot landscapes.
Do not shoot tall buildings (Nor do I leap them in a single bound!  LOL  I couldn't resist.)
Interested in opinions for further integration/use of the 3x resolution of the Credo over the Canon into all areas of my work.

I am trying to quickly learn the tech camera pros and cons and as I see it (correct me if I am wrong), the best solution for one story residential interiors of the highest resolution would be a tech cam that allows shifting of the back on the back of the cam (close proximity subject matter).  That solution, however pure and exceptional as it may be, is a very high cost of entry for the current limited interior residential architecture photography work that I have.  

So, do I stick with the lower resolution Canon with the 14mm, 17mm TSE and 24mm TSEII (has worked in the past and the client has run numerous billboards as a result...yes, I know billboard resolution is not high) or is the 28mm Phase lens markedly better and worth employing?  Or is the FPS or Hartblei equivalent better and worth employing strictly to get the 3x resolution?

[MrSmith]

The cheap option is a Sony A7r and metabones adapter (plus at least 3 spare batteries and a roll of adhesive flock) this gives you a better sensor than the canon (dynamic range and file size) and you get to use good lenses for a minimal outlay compared to a tech cam. Then you are not too far into a system if the interior work grows and you can justify a technical camera and lenses that work with your credo back.

The sony tethers with its own app straight into capture1/Lightroom with a watched folder.

[haefnerphoto]

I own both systems (Mamiya-P45+and Canon) and shoot both architecture and automobiles.  For my architectural clients I rarely use the Mamiya, I prefer the PC approach that the 17 and 24 give me over correcting the 28 in post.  Another avenue I use is the Hartblei collar for both Canon T/S lenses which allows me to stitch captures if desired.  I have owned an Arca RM3di and found that the quality was unsurpassed but unfortunately the workflow was too slow for the amount of images my clients expected per day.  Since the majority of imagery now is for web use the need for 40-80mp architectural images is limited.  I think the Sony A7R has potential but hope that Canon comes out with their own high res body sooner than later (although I've been waiting about 3 years now).  If you'd like to try the 5Dmk3 with those lenses I think you'll be impressed also.  Jim

[Transposure]

Jim,
Thanks for your reply.  I am missing the "PC" reference in your 2nd sentence.  I used to use a 1Ds Mark III (same sensor as the 5D Mark III) for the architectural work.  Excellent quality.  I am not familiar with the Hartblei collar.  Does it hold the lens stationary?
I went to your website and there is only one word...impressive body of work!  OK, that was four words.  LOL  In looking through your galleries I saw a few kitchens.  Have you shot all of them the same way?  All Canon?  Would you mind sharing your kit used to shoot them?  Feel free to answer in a PM if it is more suitable.
Thanks!
Ken

[pfigen]

I bought the Hartblei collar thingy - probably have the only one in L.A., and after trying it out a few times in the studio, I've never used that damned thing again. Beautifully made and machined, but way way overpriced and just a pain in the ass to use on a regular basis. Not only that, but it also fucks up the finish on your lenses where the yoke slides on. Instead of having an anodized aluminum surface the yoke should have teflon pads, but they don't. Also, the base does have an A/S dovetail machined into it, but it's too small for a RRS lever clamp. You either have to go to the screw clamp or shim the QR clamp with a few sheets of paper for a tight fit. When will these companies finally line up their specs?

In the end, the fastest, easiest and best solution for me for making stitched panos with the Canon T/S lenses, is to just slide the camera body 12mm left when shifting right, etc, etc, etc, thereby maintaining lens positioning and effectively performing a rear shift on a view camera. It's an effective solution that's easy and free. The Hartblei was the worst $650+ I've spent on equipment recently. Oh well.

[haefnerphoto]

Jim,
Thanks for your reply.  I am missing the "PC" reference in your 2nd sentence.  I used to use a 1Ds Mark III (same sensor as the 5D Mark III) for the architectural work.  Excellent quality.  I am not familiar with the Hartblei collar.  Does it hold the lens stationary?
I went to your website and there is only one word...impressive body of work!  OK, that was four words.  LOL  In looking through your galleries I saw a few kitchens.  Have you shot all of them the same way?  All Canon?  Would you mind sharing your kit used to shoot them?  Feel free to answer in a PM if it is more suitable.
Thanks!
Ken

Ken, PC is short for perspective control and yes, the majority of the interiors on my site were shot with the Canon-T/S lenses.  I'm not aware that the 1dsmk3 is the same as the 5dmk3 but I'm sure both would work well.  In addition, to the Canon's I find the Arca Swiss D4 head to be very useful for architecture.  The Hartblei collar does wear the exterior of the lens but I don't find it to be difficult to use by the way.  Glad you liked my work.  Jim

[sam@]

Hi Ken

I use the Hartblei tripod collar with the 24 and 17 tse lenses when I have elements close to camera (e.g. kitchens / interiors).
Otherwise if further away I stitch using the lens shift movements.

My summary -
It is really well made / solid
It takes me a minute or 2 longer to frame up the image precisely when using it
It saves more time and hassle in post as the images stitch seamlessly
It has slightly marked the black paint on my 17mm (I don't really care I am keeping it)
I use a 405 manfrotto head and have no problems

Well designed tool and does the job - I recommend it

Regards

Sam