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Author Topic: Does Matte Black ink = Less image sharpness?  (Read 3937 times)

Some Guy

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Does Matte Black ink = Less image sharpness?
« on: June 05, 2014, 11:46:37 am »

I notice the Matte Black inks are usually associated with the Fine Art "rag" papers.  "Rag"=paper towel effect maybe, with a lot of ink bleed and subsequent less sharpness.

If one uses Photo Black ink which is associated with some barytas (Canson Platine Fiber Rag 310gsm and their Baryta Photographique) and various RC papers images appear to be a bit sharper (Glossy surface too?).

Any thoughts as to paper selection and maybe ink selection for sharpness?  I've been reading where some think the Epson Hot Press is a sharper image paper for Matte Black ink, but don't have any local availability to look at.

SG
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Paul2660

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Re: Does Matte Black ink = Less image sharpness?
« Reply #1 on: June 05, 2014, 01:06:28 pm »

Actually I find, in that some of the rag papers that I use can create amazingly sharp details.  Papers that come to mine, Canson Arches (not smooth) but will has excellent fine details, Optica 1, or Epson Hot press bright, (both totally smooth surface), will get you excellent fine details.  These papers are heavy weight at 300GW and all make very detailed images, such that at sizes 20 x 30, 24 x 36, and 16 x 24, I don't see any differences in details between glossy or semi-gloss prints.  The DMAX is less, but that's due to the ink. 

All of the matte ink prints I am referring to are with the old Epson 7800 printer using the Epson inks.

Paul
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Paul Caldwell
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Some Guy

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Re: Does Matte Black ink = Less image sharpness?
« Reply #2 on: June 05, 2014, 01:20:14 pm »

Thanks Paul.

Where I see the issue is with white lettering on a black or dark background.  Conversely, black type (ink) on white paper appears much sharper.

Seems like the dark inks bleeds into the rag paper's white area where the white (paper base) lettering is soaking it up and making the white lettering appear less sharp, even thought the screen image is sharp.

Some Hahn. Photo Rag is giving me fits with white type (paper base) mixed with the black ink.  Ink leeching out is very bad on that rag paper for some reason.  Even the drug store prints look sharper.

I'll order some of the Epson Hot Press and see.

SG
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JRSmit

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Re: Does Matte Black ink = Less image sharpness?
« Reply #3 on: June 05, 2014, 01:48:59 pm »

Rag means cotton  rags aka fibers are used to create the paper base. Has no relation whatsoever with paper tissue or towel.
The paper surface has an impact on how sharp the imave edges can be as has the ink reception layer and the amount of ink applied. In short how much ink bleed will occur. Some fine art papers can be very sharp in that respect  the smooth ones in particular but also some of the more textured like the canson fine art paper suite which is capable of sharp edges.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Does Matte Black ink = Less image sharpness?
« Reply #4 on: June 05, 2014, 02:10:21 pm »

I'm new to this.  Why would you select rag or another type over others?  what is the basis of selecting one over any other?  When you mount them, do you behind glass?  If so does paper type matter?

Paul2660

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Re: Does Matte Black ink = Less image sharpness?
« Reply #5 on: June 05, 2014, 02:42:23 pm »

All I use is rag, either matte or paper like Canson's Platine (PK ink)  PC paper will always outgas behind glass and the bigger the print, the worse the issue.  If you have access to a heat press you can heat up RC and most of the outgassing will pass there, but I no longer have that.

Rag, I think to most including me means 100% cotton.  There are also alpha cellulose blends that do very well.  They just are not 100% cotton.  As mentioned by JR, a lot of it is how the paper is finished, i.e. the ink receptor layer.  Example Optica 1 from Breathing color has a smooth finish and will print extremely good fine details.  It does have OBA's but I still use it, as it has a great DMAX due to the OBA's.  The Epson Hot press bright which I am slowing moving over to, also has a very tight smooth surface and thus prints great details. 

Papers that allow the ink to settle in more will show a overall softer look, Velvet Rag is an example. 

On your text, you need to select finest details in the print driver (if you are printing from CC or CS), if LR I would try 720ppi.  Text can be challenging with inkjets. 

Paul
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Ernst Dinkla

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Re: Does Matte Black ink = Less image sharpness?
« Reply #6 on: June 05, 2014, 03:46:42 pm »

Matte art paper media presets usually have higher ink loads. The quality coatings can cope with that and that ink load compensates for the lower Dmax and smaller gamut that matte papers have compared to gloss papers. I think that if one uses a Photo Black pigment ink on matte papers it will show more bleed than the Matte Black pigment ink that is meant to be used. The pigment load of the Matte Black ink and possibly its larger pigment particle size will settle faster. And yes, text rasterized at 720 PPI at 1:1 print size will not go through the resampling routines of any software in the print pipeline if Fine Detail in the driver is also selected. It will print fine. Resampling routines usually aim at good photo image representation which is something else than text or other vector designs.

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Paul Roark

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Re: Does Matte Black ink = Less image sharpness?
« Reply #7 on: June 05, 2014, 10:59:21 pm »

I did a resolution test of various papers using an Epson 1400 (I believe).  The glossy papers were generally a bit sharper, but the smoothest matte papers were close. 

See http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/Res-Chart-EEM-HPR-Ilf-Gold-RR-UP-Sat.jpg

The papers here are Epson Enhanced Matte, H. Photo Rag, Ilford Gold FB, and Red River Ultra Pro Satin.

Frankly, the quality of the file and printing (working up the file, etc.) is way more important that the relative sharpness of the paper.

When I was thinking of archiving prints on paper for a museum, I concluded a glossy stock would have a better signal to noise ration, but then do you trust RC papers?

In terms of apparent sharpness, dyes on metallic paper appear to be tops.

FWIW,

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

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Some Guy

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Re: Does Matte Black ink = Less image sharpness?
« Reply #8 on: June 06, 2014, 12:31:43 am »

Interesting test Paul on the papers.  Sort of follows what I found with the HPR too, it just isn't sharp.  I did find the extinct Ilford Gallerie Gold Fiber Silk to be much sharper as well.

The reverse of your test might be interesting, i.e. black background with white type and resolution lines.  Seems the flood of black has a lot of leeching in the layer and obliterates the white paper beneath it.  One can always throttle back on the black type (ink density) to make it appear sharper and dry sooner and not leech out, but the reverse seems much harder to pull off as the paper is wetter.  A sharp 6-point type made in white on black is pretty hard to pull off.  Possibly even harder with a multi-tone "shades of black" ink printing like MIS or Cone's if they dithers or mix some other middle shades near the black-to-white transition border creating a blur.  I dunno... ???

I'm awaiting delivery of the Epson Hot Press Bright to see what it does.

SG
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robgo2

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Re: Does Matte Black ink = Less image sharpness?
« Reply #9 on: June 06, 2014, 04:46:01 pm »

Aside from academic interest regarding sharpness on different types of papers, I think that the more important question is whether sharpness should be an end in itself.  Far more significant is the overall look of a print, which can differ greatly between matte and glossy papers.  Personally, I find that smooth matte papers deliver all the detail that I need with a non-reflective surface that virtually disappears.  The absence of surface reflections more than compensates for reduced Dmax, color gamut and edge sharpness, IMO.  It can be very challenging to illuminate a glossy print in a manner that does not produce reflections unless one is standing at the exact right spot for viewing.  Move a few degrees in either direction, and the sharpness advantage disappears.

Just my opinion.

Rob    
« Last Edit: June 06, 2014, 04:50:01 pm by robgo2 »
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JRSmit

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Re: Does Matte Black ink = Less image sharpness?
« Reply #10 on: June 07, 2014, 02:58:12 am »

Sharpness is an element of the total and one that should not be overlooked.
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Does Matte Black ink = Less image sharpness?
« Reply #11 on: June 07, 2014, 04:24:40 am »

I'm new to this.  Why would you select rag or another type over others?

Hi Alan,

It has, amongst others, to do with things like acidity (e.g. rag versus wood-pulp) of the substrate, and structure/curl tendency, and surface finish (glossy/matte, OBAs). Other aspects such as scratch resistance, sensitivity to handling (fingerprints/moisture), thickness, opacity (is the paper translucent, does it show the color of the backing material or even a stamp or note on the back). How it handles, may be a factor for prints that get handed around, or for mounting.

Cheers,
Bart
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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: Does Matte Black ink = Less image sharpness?
« Reply #12 on: June 07, 2014, 10:05:04 am »

To clear up a common misconception:  alpha-cellulose is the key component of cotton and lots of other fibrous plant products that are used in paper making.  Just because a product is made from cotton rag (actually it's not made from rags but rather cotton lint that is left over from processing) does not make it any more special than a paper that is labeled alpha-cellulose.  Cotton is very low in lignin and other components that can cause deterioration in the paper.  This can be handled by proper processing during the paper making.  Hahnemuhle has offered papers made from bamboo, rice, and sugar cane; the latter is no longer available according to the website.

Regarding sharpness, one needs to remember that viewing distance is critical.  Two images might look the same at the "normal" viewing distance and show different degrees of sharpness when examined close up.  I've seen lots of fine prints from various photographers made on matte papers which have less gamut and sharpness than PK papers but when viewed in context they are quite fine.  Ultimately, it's an individual choice.

Alan
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Paul2660

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Re: Does Matte Black ink = Less image sharpness?
« Reply #13 on: June 07, 2014, 10:40:12 am »

Alan.

You make a good point. As you mention cotton is about 88 to 96% alpha cellulose. Which is why I love Canson Baryta.   100% rag would be made with textile remnants and is more expensive. Either type allows the glycols to outgas through the back of the print so fogging on glass is nominal.   I am still not sure if papers labeled alpha cellulose can be thought to be 100% cotton especially in today's market. But I will defer to others with more detailed knowledge on that subject.

As for print details to me either type of paper with a smooth finish matte or glossy can produce excellent results.

Paul

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Some Guy

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Re: Does Matte Black ink = Less image sharpness?
« Reply #14 on: June 07, 2014, 12:04:27 pm »

For fun, I took Paul's print sharpness method above and applied it to a 1951 Air Force Resolution Test Chart.  Then I inverted it so I had a negative image next to the positive one, and printed it.

The black ink lettering and bars on white is far easier to see under magnification.  The reverse of white on black is a total mess and may as well print on wet paper towels.  Has to be ink bleeding through the carrier layer.  If I dial it back in density, the dMax suffers.  How far I can go to turn the density down which will affect the sharpness is another matter.  Can't read the dMax of black over smallness of the white lettering, but the black over white is very black.

Might be able to reclaim some dMax by over-spraying with Premier PhotoShield or similar, but unsure.

More interesting is the spectrometer tells me the glossy RC has a darker black (~Lab 8), but the matte black on the Epson Hot Press is very jet black (~Lab 15) to my eyes, but the spectrometer says it isn't as black as the RC paper's black.  Epson paper's dullness perhaps against the glossy RC shine perhaps.

add---

Been wondering due to the outgassing and long time to dry for matte papers, if adding a hot air blower (hair dryer) near the exit of the printer might help in sharpness by not allowing the ink to bleed or leech as it dries?

SG
« Last Edit: June 07, 2014, 01:40:39 pm by Some Guy »
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Does Matte Black ink = Less image sharpness?
« Reply #15 on: June 07, 2014, 02:13:56 pm »

For fun, I took Paul's print sharpness method above and applied it to a 1951 Air Force Resolution Test Chart.  Then I inverted it so I had a negative image next to the positive one, and printed it.

The black ink lettering and bars on white is far easier to see under magnification.  The reverse of white on black is a total mess and may as well print on wet paper towels.

Hi,

Was that at 360 PPI, or at 720 PPI (requires setting the "finest detail" option)?

Cheers,
Bart
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Some Guy

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Re: Does Matte Black ink = Less image sharpness?
« Reply #16 on: June 07, 2014, 03:20:33 pm »

Hi,

Was that at 360 PPI, or at 720 PPI (requires setting the "finest detail" option)?

Cheers,
Bart

I saved them and pixel cleaned them (B&W only, no gray.) up at 720 PPI.

I have set the printer to 2880 and 1440 in the past via the print software.  You really can see a difference there.

Flipping or inverting the 1951 resolution chart side-by-side shows a lot of ink bleeding to my eyes.  A black ink dot on white paper looks sharp as that chart spirals down to the middle detail, but not so the on the inverted one: It was "Where did the white dot go?"  Some papers seem a lot worse for ink bleed, if that's what it's called.  PTE papers = "Paper Towel Effect" papers maybe?  Or maybe "Too slow to dry before leeching out everywhere ink" too?  Or too heavy a density layer of ink too.

Was reading some guy's blog about printing on matte papers with matte black inks.  He said "to allow 24 hours for them to dry down as they will change during that time for a decent reading."  Seems a lot of leeching could also be going on in that length of time too.

SG
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Farmer

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Re: Does Matte Black ink = Less image sharpness?
« Reply #17 on: June 08, 2014, 12:58:01 am »

I saved them and pixel cleaned them (B&W only, no gray.) up at 720 PPI.

I have set the printer to 2880 and 1440 in the past via the print software.  You really can see a difference there.


What Bart mentioned about "Finest Detail" is important - that's what tells the driver of an Epson LFP to accept the 720ppi data.
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robgo2

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Re: Does Matte Black ink = Less image sharpness?
« Reply #18 on: June 10, 2014, 04:58:29 pm »

Sharpness is an element of the total and one that should not be overlooked.

Agreed, but it is just one element, and frequently not the most important one, in creating the total look of a print.  I'm not pretending that I do not value sharpness under most circumstances, but sharpness alone is not enough to make an image truly impactful.

“Sharpness is a bourgeois concept”
― Henri Cartier-Bresson


Rob
« Last Edit: June 10, 2014, 05:00:42 pm by robgo2 »
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JRSmit

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Re: Does Matte Black ink = Less image sharpness?
« Reply #19 on: June 11, 2014, 12:54:33 am »

How important the element sharpness is, is subjective. Henri 's statement was made in a time where he had to live with the large grain of film in the way he was photographing.
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