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Author Topic: 10 bit RAW converters and editors  (Read 17930 times)

Simon Garrett

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Re: 10 bit RAW converters and editors
« Reply #20 on: June 03, 2014, 06:39:34 AM »

I see I'm swimming in snark infested waters.  I posed the same title as a question in Google and got my answer, so what does that say about Lula.

There are one or two comments here from sharks (or snarks?):

"Please read up on this before commenting."
"Some responders had no clue."
"Some askers had difficulty asking their questions coherently."

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digitaldog

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Re: 10 bit RAW converters and editors
« Reply #21 on: June 03, 2014, 10:52:01 AM »

I see I'm swimming in snark infested waters.  I posed the same title as a question in Google and got my answer, so what does that say about Lula.
Say's a lot about Google! Look. Let's be honest here and examine the responses you got. This is the Other Raw Converter forum where presumably one asks questions about raw converters. You asked this exactly within this forum: Are there any besides Photoshop CS6 and CC? The question was so vague someone had to ask for further clarification and you then wrote: 10 bits each of R G B for monitors with 1.06 billion colors. Another preson answers and you write: No no no no. Output to monitor.  Please read up on this before commenting.
Your question was unclear and in the wrong forum, then you told the person trying to help you to 'read up before commenting'. Any wonder the sharks are biting at your feet? Finally we figured out you're referring to the bit depth of the display path. You write: Yes, that's what I was always talking about. Some responders had no clue.

Maybe English is your second language. No worries. Just title and state your question clearly and ideally in the right forum and you'll get assistance. But we can't as yet read your mind, that's why we don't have a clue. Take some responsibility for your inability to clearly ask the question please.
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Andrew Rodney
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elied

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Re: 10 bit RAW converters and editors
« Reply #22 on: June 03, 2014, 05:16:49 PM »

I see I'm swimming in snark infested waters.  I posed the same title as a question in Google and got my answer, so what does that say about Lula.
Hmm, maybe it says that Lula responders are human beings.
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Schewe

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Re: 10 bit RAW converters and editors
« Reply #23 on: June 08, 2014, 10:55:58 PM »

I see I'm swimming in snark infested waters.  I posed the same title as a question in Google and got my answer, so what does that say about Lula.

It says your approach and attitude here pretty much sucks...(that and the fact you didn't really have a clue what question you were actually asking–and that's on you bud).

If you had asked, "what applications offer a 10-bit display path?", you would have gotten the correct answer far earlier-Photoshop CS5+ on Windows.

:~)
« Last Edit: June 08, 2014, 10:59:29 PM by Schewe »
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xpatUSA

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Re: 10 bit RAW converters and editors
« Reply #24 on: June 09, 2014, 12:45:49 PM »

I see I'm swimming in snark infested waters.  I posed the same title as a question in Google and got my answer, so what does that say about Lula.

You might find that Lula has bigger sharks than on other sites. And some of those sharks can be less friendly than others. There could even be a couple of Great Whites here  ;)

from a fellow minnow . . .
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FranciscoDisilvestro

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Re: 10 bit RAW converters and editors
« Reply #25 on: June 09, 2014, 04:55:20 PM »

You might find that Lula has bigger sharks than on other sites. And some of those sharks can be less friendly than others. There could even be a couple of Great Whites here  ;)

from a fellow minnow . . .

Just don't take it personally and move on. Some of those "sharks" are known experts in the industry, willing to share advanced knowledge at no charge. I'd rather have good advice from a rude individual than a load of BS from a polite one.

Regards

xpatUSA

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Re: 10 bit RAW converters and editors
« Reply #26 on: June 10, 2014, 12:03:31 AM »

Just don't take it personally and move on.

Nothing here for me to take personally. I am not the one being torn to shreds in this thread  ;D

Quote
Some of those "sharks" are known experts in the industry, willing to share advanced knowledge at no charge. I'd rather have good advice from a rude individual than a load of BS from a polite one.

At my age, I'd rather have good advice politely delivered. Advice offered provocatively or condescendingly has no place in these fora, no matter who gives it, IMHO.

Toujours la politesse,

« Last Edit: June 10, 2014, 10:15:07 PM by xpatUSA »
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Lundberg02

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Re: 10 bit RAW converters and editors
« Reply #27 on: June 10, 2014, 02:29:27 AM »

Oh, I'm used to rough handling, not that I'm loving it or anything. I've electronically known Schewe and Rodney for about 18 years.  Also I was in the Adobe Photoshop forum for about that long, until all the interesting and snarky people left a couple years ago. I rarely go there now. Moderators have a way of driving off the fun stuff.
This is one of the good forums left.  I have routinely seen the path referred to as 10 bit and thought more people would be hip.
I'm about to jump into the wide gamut monitor pool at the shallow end regardless of the fact that the Mac path doesn't do 10 bit, so we'll see how much good a 14 bit LUT does.  Maybe Tim Cook will wake from his iPhone dream and do something for his desktop worshippers next year. Doesn't look like this year.
BTW I believe you can do 10 bit in CS 4 on Win.
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hjulenissen

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Re: 10 bit RAW converters and editors
« Reply #28 on: June 10, 2014, 03:49:02 AM »

At my age, I'd rather have good advice politely delivered. Advice offered provocatively or condescending has no place in these fora, no matter who gives it, IMHO.
My experience is that the people who are able to improve my knowledge tends to be polite (though not all polite people are experts, of course). Perhaps that reasonable amount of self confidence allows them to continually absorb new knowledge, as well as interpret questions so as to give the relevant answers?

I think that the thread starter steered this thread away from topic by choice of words. If that was not intended, I think he would be well adviced to choose differently in future threads.

-h
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digitaldog

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Re: 10 bit RAW converters and editors
« Reply #29 on: June 10, 2014, 10:10:03 AM »

I'm about to jump into the wide gamut monitor pool at the shallow end regardless of the fact that the Mac path doesn't do 10 bit, so we'll see how much good a 14 bit LUT does. 
It will be fine. It would be kind of nice if the Mac would fully support a high bit video path. Maybe in the next OS. But the higher data path in the panel itself should be just fine for editing wide gamut data without showing banding due to the limitations of the OS. 10-bit, 14-bit, it's all a bit of marketing hype once you get past 8-bits per color which is useful.
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Andrew Rodney
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hjulenissen

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Re: 10 bit RAW converters and editors
« Reply #30 on: June 10, 2014, 10:20:21 AM »

It will be fine. It would be kind of nice if the Mac would fully support a high bit video path. Maybe in the next OS. But the higher data path in the panel itself should be just fine for editing wide gamut data without showing banding due to the limitations of the OS. 10-bit, 14-bit, it's all a bit of marketing hype once you get past 8-bits per color which is useful.
There seems to be widespread agreement that 8 bits per channel is the point where adding more bits adds little or no benefit.

According to Poynton, 8 bits (gamma) is sufficient for 50:1 DR. Most (printing) photographers adjust their display for a moderate brightness, where peak contrast may not be possible. If I was a marketing-guy trying to "sell" the idea of 10-bit display connections, I might suggest things like:
-State-of-the-art PC monitors can reproduce 1000:1 or more of DR
-Doing calibration in PC software as opposed to in display firmware is more convenient
- A bit of overkill is seldom negative, especially if it comes at low cost

-h
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Jim Kasson

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Re: 10 bit RAW converters and editors
« Reply #31 on: June 10, 2014, 11:43:07 AM »


I'm about to jump into the wide gamut monitor pool at the shallow end regardless of the fact that the Mac path doesn't do 10 bit, so we'll see how much good a 14 bit LUT does. 

I don't think you'll be missing much. I tried a 10-bit (if you're an engineer) or 30-bit (if you work in product marketing) display path a while back:

http://blog.kasson.com/?p=668

And ended up going back to eight bits.

One thing that's changed since then is the so-called retina displays. That kind of pixel density makes 8-bit with dither a serious competitor to 10 bits, as long as you've got a LUT in your display.

Jim

Lundberg02

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Re: 10 bit RAW converters and editors
« Reply #32 on: June 11, 2014, 12:49:04 AM »

2011 is long ago for technology, isn't it Jim?  I guess all that could be done in a few clicks for a tenth the money now. Do you think you'll repeat something similar?
I think color management is a mess myself. Rendering intents are a farce. I don't see why a monitor with a 14 bit LUT shouldn't be delivered perfectly profiled, what would it cost 20 bucks? By whuppin up on it for quite a while and reading voraciously, including our forum friends Schewe and dd, I have got a path that makes sense for my equipment and the workflow/image path.  I usually convert from RAW in Photoshop CS 5 to Pro Photo 16 bit tiff, make my tweaks, and print to my Epson using matte in perceptual with PS manages colors. Matches my sRGB screen well and is visually pleasing.
I'll be getting a Dell WG in about ten days, so I'll have to see if any appreciable changes need to be made to the process.
 I have lots of image editors and RAW converters, and just added Lightroom. I was amazed to see that it opened with one of my RAWs in place, apparently with lens correction. I have an old Fuji EXR and a lot of the apps don't know from Fuji lenses. I don't really trust what I saw yet because I don't know LR, but it's encouraging. I usually use DxO Perspective for geometry when needed.

About the attitudes and ragging. Two stints in the military, 50 years in aerospace with at least two insane bosses, and 55 years of marriage, I know something about taking a hit.  I remember one outfit where I was proposals manager and the boss said he wanted a full section of this big deal to be a description of the company capability, so I wrote up pages of all this glowing bullshit, bunch of pictures, all that jazz. Before it went out, he cut it all out and put in two sentences saying the company had all the necessary facilities and expertise required. This same nutcase fired the manager of the only department that was making money, and the poor guy had a heart attack and died. That's what happens when you internalize the values of the culture, as any Marxist could tell you.  In my career I saw other capable men take their own lives when the company didn't recognize their ability. You just can't take things that seriously.  I had one boss rate me average. I told him, no, you mean terrible, don't you, because average means you don't have to explain why to upper management and then I get to say something about you, you are the guy who couldn't get a capacitor bracket through a shake test after three weeks of redesigning.
Talk about taking a hit, the first time I flew with my first project pilot, he showed me how to bail out and said you have to go before I do or I can't get out. Then he he patted his sidearm and said, "You will leave, one way or the other".
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digitaldog

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Re: 10 bit RAW converters and editors
« Reply #33 on: June 11, 2014, 10:25:20 AM »

Rendering intents are a farce.
You just have to explain that one to us, please.
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Andrew Rodney
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Lundberg02

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Re: 10 bit RAW converters and editors
« Reply #34 on: June 12, 2014, 11:44:51 PM »

I think you were the one who explained that to me.
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hjulenissen

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Re: 10 bit RAW converters and editors
« Reply #35 on: June 13, 2014, 03:26:53 AM »

...Two stints in the military, 50 years in aerospace with at least two insane bosses, and 55 years of marriage, I know something about taking a hit...
Fascinating. Did you also learn something about how to accomplish your goals (i.e. getting info on 10 bit rendering path) without drowning the topic in noise?

-h
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xpatUSA

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Re: 10 bit RAW converters and editors
« Reply #36 on: June 13, 2014, 09:05:50 AM »

I think you [digitaldog] were the one who explained that to me.

That's a bit hard to swallow! Do you have a link to where he explained that?

cheers,
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Lundberg02

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Re: 10 bit RAW converters and editors
« Reply #37 on: June 17, 2014, 02:25:37 AM »

I've been using Photoshop since 1996. Back then, I was usually scanning photo prints with a Umax and adjusting them for print on an Apple printer (actually a Canon inside). Then Adobe created RGB 1998 and I began to use it as a working space. Eventually RAW came along and I would convert to Pro Photo and print from it using Photoshop manages colors. I would select Perceptual as the rendering intent. The prints matched my sRGB screen well enough and I had the advantage of a six color printer. I have never used soft proof because I've never sent anything to a commercial printer.   After doing RAW for a year or so I decided to revisit rendering intents, That's when I came across some article or blog post by either Schewe or dd that said you only get relative when converting from Pro Photo to aRGB or sRGB working space and seen on the screen.
I proved it to myself, and also proved that I could actually get all four intents in print by printing from Pro Photo.  The reason you only get relative is that as I believe Schewe explained, it is the receiving profiler that has to contain the intents and the profiles installed in Photoshop only have relative. You can go to ICC and get an sRGB that has other intents and install it if you want. One of the  members of this forum also posted a profile that will allow you to make an intermediate step to get other intents, too.
I might use it when I fire up my wide gamut sometime soon.
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xpatUSA

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Re: 10 bit RAW converters and editors
« Reply #38 on: June 17, 2014, 02:33:45 AM »

After doing RAW for a year or so I decided to revisit rendering intents, That's when I came across some article or blog post by either Schewe or dd that said you only get relative when converting from Pro Photo to aRGB or sRGB working space and seen on the screen.

Oh, that. I thought everybody knew that . .

Try RawTherapee   ;)
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digitaldog

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Re: 10 bit RAW converters and editors
« Reply #39 on: June 17, 2014, 09:56:20 AM »

The reason you only get relative is that as I believe Schewe explained, it is the receiving profiler that has to contain the intents and the profiles installed in Photoshop only have relative. You can go to ICC and get an sRGB that has other intents and install it if you want. One of the  members of this forum also posted a profile that will allow you to make an intermediate step to get other intents, too.
Simple matrix style working space profiles only have a Colorimetric table. That's by design, no farce about it but some reader misunderstanding yes. 
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Andrew Rodney
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