Fuji Rumor

[eronald]

probably and Edmund that's been your stance ever since you feel you got burned by Phase, but remember there is no free lunch.

A smaller almost medium format camera for less, sure, it'll happen now that Sony has made the generic sensor, but will it work professionally, tether, have lens sets that are affordable, large buffer, software suites, bright viewfinders that you can manually and autofocus . . . the list goes on.

Cheap is easy.  Cheap and professional is hard.

AJA and Blackmagic have lowered the entry costs of digital cinema . . . especially AJA but when you add the numbers, take the chance that out of the box it's going to be right, then look around at what's available on the refurb, demo market you realize the entry costs are already pretty low.

Check out the prices of a refurb or dealer backed h4d40, or a Leica S2, IQ 40 mpx camera and at the end of the day, it's probably the same price as the Pentax with a lot more options in rental and the buy the lens used market.

IMO

BC

J,

I don't think Phase really priced more atrociously than Canon initially -remember the 1Ds - and I didn't get burned by Phase, I got burned by my own inexperience and an exceptionally bad dealer. My Canon experience was pretty good, thanks to CPS. Which is why I am the first to tell people to go with Doug and Steve who are known to be competent and honest.

For the rest you are clearly 100% right. A $1K CMOS chip does not -yet- a "pro" camera make. It won't contrast-detect focus, tether etc, until Sony codes most of that into the reference design they provide to OEMs. And yes, for today's buyer a used Hassy or Leica S2 or Phase back is a good deal.

However, I think the future looks a bit different with the Sony chip and a forthcoming Leica/CMOSIS chip: I believe the tech cam guys and historical Hassy users are going to get their cheap digital backs. I think Alpa and Arca users are going to be very happy.  I think a historical Rollei solution and a Rolleiflex/Hy6/Sinar comeback are a definite possibility; above all I think we're going to go back to a point where a quality MF camera body or lens are high value and profitable items that can sell for considerably more than the back price.

In other words, I think the Sony chip is very good news for MF users and the MF camera industry, including the ecosystem of small specialist camera manufacturers and dealers who retail bodies and lenses.

Edmund

[bcooter]

J,

I don't think Phase really priced more atrociously than Canon initially -remember the 1Ds - and I didn't get burned by Phase, I got burned by my own inexperience and an exceptionally bad dealer. My Canon experience was pretty good, thanks to CPS. Which is why I am the first to tell people to go with Doug and Steve who are known to be competent and honest.

For the rest you are clearly 100% right. A $1K CMOS chip does not a "pro" camera make. It won't contrast-detect focus, tether etc, until Sony codes most of that into the reference design they provide to OEMs. And yes, for today's buyer a used Hassy or Leica S2 or Phase back is a good deal.

However, I think the future looks a bit different with the Sony chip and a forthcoming Leica/CMOSIS chip: I believe the tech cam guys and historical Hassy users are going to get their cheap digital backs. I think Alpa and Arca users are going to be very happy.  I think a historical Rollei solution and a Rolleiflex/Hy6/Sinar comeback are a definite possibility; above all I think we're going to go back to a point where a quality MF camera body and lens are high value profitable items that sell for considerably more than the back price.

Edmund

I'm not knocking you man, I'm just saying there is no free lunch. For a non pro without having to tether, a camera like the fuji would be cool, especially if it comes it at 5 grand and the Pentax is hard to pass up, but when you add Pentax newer lens prices, a back body, it's serious cash.

for video I'd love a Sony A7, that shot like my reds, small like the sony and had the gh3/4 autofocus I'd be over the moon, but nobody is making it especially at sony $2,500 prices.

Even those little m43 cameras I have are not cheap when you buy fast lenses to compensate for the small sensor.  a$1,500 for the leica lens is Canon territory and though it's not cinema lens prices, for m43 stills it's high.

No free lunch and btw:  I've made a lot of mistakes on equipment, usually trying to save money rather than bite the bullet.

BC

[eronald]

I'm not knocking you man, I'm just saying there is no free lunch. For a non pro without having to tether, a camera like the fuji would be cool, especially if it comes it at 5 grand and the Pentax is hard to pass up, but when you add Pentax newer lens prices, a back body, it's serious cash.

for video I'd love a Sony A7, that shot like my reds, small like the sony and had the gh3/4 autofocus I'd be over the moon, but nobody is making it especially at sony $2,500 prices.

Even those little m43 cameras I have are not cheap when you buy fast lenses to compensate for the small sensor.  a$1,500 for the leica lens is Canon territory and though it's not cinema lens prices, for m43 stills it's high.

No free lunch and btw:  I've made a lot of mistakes on equipment, usually trying to save money rather than bite the bullet.

BC

J,

 The thing I cannot really figure out is why you keep some *expensive* stills-only equipment in the mix, when you do so much video work and the small cams can shoot 90% as useful as MF. - a collective endeavour.

Edmund

[bcooter]

J,

 The thing I cannot really figure out is why you keep some *expensive* stills-only equipment in the mix, when you do so much video work and the small cams can shoot 90% as useful as MF.

Edmund

cause I like em.

[eronald]

cause I like em.

+1 !

Edmund

[Ken R]

J,

I don't think Phase really priced more atrociously than Canon initially -remember the 1Ds - and I didn't get burned by Phase, I got burned by my own inexperience and an exceptionally bad dealer. My Canon experience was pretty good, thanks to CPS. Which is why I am the first to tell people to go with Doug and Steve who are known to be competent and honest.

For the rest you are clearly 100% right. A $1K CMOS chip does not a "pro" camera make. It won't contrast-detect focus, tether etc, until Sony codes most of that into the reference design they provide to OEMs. And yes, for today's buyer a used Hassy or Leica S2 or Phase back is a good deal.

However, I think the future looks a bit different with the Sony chip and a forthcoming Leica/CMOSIS chip: I believe the tech cam guys and historical Hassy users are going to get their cheap digital backs. I think Alpa and Arca users are going to be very happy.  I think a historical Rollei solution and a Rolleiflex/Hy6/Sinar comeback are a definite possibility; above all I think we're going to go back to a point where a quality MF camera body and lens are high value profitable items that sell for considerably more than the back price.

Edmund

Exactly, things are going to get better in the MF Digital world, not worse. They are pretty good right now so more choices, better technology and lower prices are always welcome.

The best tech camera platforms and lenses are not going to get cheap though. I think they are pretty fairly priced nowadays considering that they are pretty low volume products.

Regarding the new Sony sensor, I for one love the large size sensor in my IQ160. I hope the 44mmx33mm sensor size does not become the only option in MFD the future. Love to see a CMOS chip in the same size as the 60/80mp Dalsa sensors.

I remember when the 1DS came out at $8,000 (Photokina 2002). Nikonians had to endure 6 years (until 2008, and several full frame DSLRs from Canon) until Nikon came out with a full frame DSLR (D3). The 1DS was and still is a great camera. $8k USD in 2002 was about the equivalent of $10,500 in today's $.

[The View]

If the Fuji came in at a great price, you could get one, and a backup body.

I wonder if there'll be the ability to change lenses - that's for me the key point.

Otherwise it would be like those medium format viewfinder cameras of the 80's.

Why shouldn't the Fuji be able to tether?

[eronald]

If the Fuji came in at a great price, you could get one, and a backup body.

I wonder if there'll be the ability to change lenses - that's for me the key point.

Otherwise it would be like those medium format viewfinder cameras of the 80's.

Why shouldn't the Fuji be able to tether?

My expectation is that Sony will eventually evolve an SDK for a reference implementation which it provides to large volume chip buyers - any feature that is in the reference implementation could be in all the cameras. If tethering or focus peaking is in the reference implementation, it will be in all the (cheap) cameras. Phase and Hassy are a different matter because they have existing product ranges. It would be interesting to know whether Pentax are using something self-developed, or skinning a Sony design.

Think of my argument as the one about mobile phones: You have Apple and even now Blackberry and everybody else is basically skinning Android which is why they can churn out very good phones quickly and with low dev costs. Phase and Hassy are now basically the Apple and Blackberry of MF, but the Android clones are going to be set loose by Sony.

Edmund

[JV]

Think of my argument as the one about mobile phones: You have Apple and even now Blackberry and everybody else is basically skinning Android which is why they can churn out very good phones quickly and with low dev costs. Phase and Hassy are now basically the Apple and Blackberry of MF, but the Android clones are going to be set loose by Sony.

Interesting way of looking at things and you might be entirely right. 

Personally I see Leica as the Apple of MF though. 

IMO Leica stands a better change of maintaining their business model than Phase or Hasselblad, especially if the Leica T turns out to be a success which I suspect it will be.

Joris.

[MrSmith]

Leica are definitely more akin to Vertu with their niche luxury products.
apple are a mass market brand not ‘luxury'

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi,

I would agree tech cams are fair priced, but I would suggest simpler tech cams are possible using sensors with live view. It seems that todays Sony sensors are not a good match for non retrofocus wide angles, that may need some consideration too.

Best regards
Erik

Exactly, things are going to get better in the MF Digital world, not worse. They are pretty good right now so more choices, better technology and lower prices are always welcome.

The best tech camera platforms and lenses are not going to get cheap though. I think they are pretty fairly priced nowadays considering that they are pretty low volume products.

Regarding the new Sony sensor, I for one love the large size sensor in my IQ160. I hope the 44mmx33mm sensor size does not become the only option in MFD the future. Love to see a CMOS chip in the same size as the 60/80mp Dalsa sensors.

I remember when the 1DS came out at $8,000 (Photokina 2002). Nikonians had to endure 6 years (until 2008, and several full frame DSLRs from Canon) until Nikon came out with a full frame DSLR (D3). The 1DS was and still is a great camera. $8k USD in 2002 was about the equivalent of $10,500 in today's $.

[eronald]

The reference design model gives you a bunch of similar acting clones, but the software can be solid albeit bland. And if the hardware is very varied you can have an interesting palette - think of a folder camera, a rangefinder version, a superwide. MF is a good place for strong hardware variation because users are ready to pay premium for a niche product that fits their fancy - as Phase and Hassy have proved.

Edmund

[hexx]

I just hope, if this rumour is true that Fuji will do it properly (think alongside Mamiya 6/7):

- interchangeable lenses
- leaf shutters in the lenses to allow high flash sync speeds
- would like to see X-Pro1 form factor but since the body will be larger, no need for tiny finicky buttons
- weather sealed from start - both body and lenses
- introduce with holy trinity of lenses - wide, normal, portrait
- ideally mechanically coupled lenses - their X series are fully electronic for both aperture settings and focus
- and no x-trans

Portability and IQ is the only reason I still use Mamiya 6

I'd love system like this to compliment my good old Brutus (Hassy with Leaf back - always tripod use)

[BernardLanguillier]

I think that Fuji would release an integrated lens camera, not a system.

Cheers,
Bernard

[JV]

I would also be surprised if it was an ILC….

The X100 paved the way for the X-Pro1 and the X-T1 and that worked pretty nicely.

[EricWHiss]

When I saw the rumor I was thinking fixed lens, folding rangefinder style camera for under $10k.     I mean if you want to get into interchangeable lenses then well there are a lot of competitors and it would nix the magic. There is beauty in simplicity.  Well ok maybe an EVF instead of a rangefinder, but keep it simple!

[JV]

When I saw the rumor I was thinking fixed lens, folding rangefinder style camera for under $10k.     I mean if you want to get into interchangeable lenses then well there are a lot of competitors and it would nix the magic. There is beauty in simplicity.  Well ok maybe an EVF instead of a rangefinder, but keep it simple!

It would need to be way under $10K, $5K max, otherwise you get into Pentax territory.

I love the Fuji FP-1 I have and I am still often tempted by the GF670.  A camera like that would be very cool!

[Pics2]

I'm interested to see what fixed lens it would be. 55mm maybe?

[Dan Wells]

This would be a very interesting landscape camera, depending on the lens(es). I've always wondered if someone could do an EVF camera with sensor tilt - darn near impossible in a reflex camera, because you can't preview the effect, but sensors are already on motorized mounts (for dust removal and image stabilization) - how hard would it be to allow the sensor to be tilted? On a 44x33 mm sensor, we aren't talking about much movement to meaningfully alter the plane of focus - even on 4x5, it is generally less than a centimeter of difference between the edges of the film, so on the smaller sensor, we are talking about an adjustment range of several millimeters.

                                 -Dan

[Telecaster]

I'm interested to see what fixed lens it would be. 55mm maybe?

Anything in the 45–55mm range would suit me fine.

If Fuji were to implement an electronic split-image manual focuser as in the latest X cameras, I'd be fine with an EVF...and with an AF lens too (which I'd use mainly in manual mode). Otherwise I'd prefer a proper rangefinder mechanism.

I like the idea of sensor tilt/shift too. You could use this for horizon leveling and multi-shot true RGB capture as well as image plane tilting.

-Dave-