Fuji Rumor

[JV]

Only a rumor but I, for one, would love this:
http://www.fujirumors.com/digital-medium-format-camera-fujifilm-coming-end-summer-new-anonymous-source/
If somebody can pull this off it is definitely Fuji. 

[BernardLanguillier]

That could be interesting. Fuji colors and lens quality at 50mp!

I guess that it would be using the Sony chip with their own filtering.

This makes a lot of sense considering the long legacy of Fuji rangefinder style MF cameras.

Cheers,
Bernard

[EricWHiss]

I saw the same rumor - its circulating facebook.   
But I'm sure a large sensor rangefinder would be welcome ... always thought it would be the Mamiya 7 especially with the Phase connection, but one of the Fuji folders would be cool too. 

[Ken R]

With the Sony 50MP MF sensor out just about any of the major players can make a MF Digital camera. Fuji makes the Blad H and lenses. They have lot's of experience with Medium Format. Their optics are superb.

I don't see anyone else making Digital Backs though, other than Phase/Leaf (and Hasselblad, sorta, since the backs of the H#D cameras can be detached but can't be purchased separately and are not really designed to operate as such)

[ndevlin]

This would be truly fantastic if true.  Seems pie-in-the-sky, but who knows. Now that the chip is cheap, plentiful and proven, some real camera companies may start using it as Pentax already has.

- N.

ps. for sake of clarity, by 'real', I mean companies with the capital, talent and ability to produce a camera a professional photographer would actually want to buy and use in 2014 

[eronald]

Maybe bigger sensors will finally go mainstream again. 35mm is a historical aberration.

Edmund

[Telecaster]

A 21st century Texas Leica? I'd be all over that...but consider me skeptical. OTOH a declining mainstream camera market may actually encourage the development & production of more niche products over time. Seems to me a 44x33mm frame size should make for a fairly compact rangefinder system.

-Dave-

[Lacunapratum]

I'd love such a camera.  Still remember my Fuji GSW690iii very fondly, including that 65mm lens.  The Mamiya 7II was sharper, but almost too much contrast for film to handle.  And the 680 with all of those wonderful lenses and that huge format.  It must be Fuji!

Also gives Fuji a new medium format platform that sets it apart from the Sonyblads.  They probably can use a lot of electronics from their X-series, like Pentax used their K3 electronics for the 645Z.  Sounds almost logical too me.  

[BJL]

35mm is a historical aberration.

Of course it is ... but with 120 and 220 roll film available, there was the fairly easy option of a somewhat larger format like 645, so the main historical aberration was the persistence of 135 film as the minimum common format size for half a century despite the great improvements in resolution and sensitivity which have driven an overall centuries-long trend to expanded use of smaller formats.  This aberration was probably driven largely by the excellent economies of scale in 135 film production, processing, and printing, which locked in 135 film and cameras as usually cheaper than the various smaller film formats that were tried,and never significantly more expensive.  Of course, that historical accident was demolished by the digital transition, which has reduced 35mm format to a relatively small high-end niche compared to its role in the film era, with about 1% of its former overall usage.

TL;DR: predicting any significant trend towards larger formats is bizarrely counter-factual.

Not that this rules out the specific idea of Fujifilm making a high end niche camera using the new Sony 44x33mm sensor, but it seems a risky investment idea to either tie a multi-thousand dollar item to a single lens, or to commit to the expense of developing multiple new AF lenses for a new "large digital format" system.  Pentax already has AF lenses usable on its "645" digital bodies, and Leica has a prestigious reputation that allows it to charge extremely high prices for its S system bodies and lenses, whereas Fujifilm has neither.

[eronald]

The one thing which no one here appears to consider is that with huge wafer size increases, "MF" sensors prices may now be heading well south of $1K whe purchased in "real" quantities, , enabling camera prices commensurate with FF within a couple of years. The Sony 50MP sensor doesn't have that much greater area than 35mm, and area and unit sales numbers are what counts.

The reason nobody is considering this lowball scenario is the brainwashing by inflated Phase and H prices, themselves justified by the initially high sensor pricing of the first generation ...

I think we're headed for the $4K mirrorless MF body and in this context fixed lens cameras make perfect sense. Think Hasselblad SWC, the price wouldn't be much higher. The surprisingly strong sales of the Sigma DP series have shown the market can still love slow and simple single-use high quality devices, that they are economically viable, and can be manufactured at a lower pricepoint than more complex SLRs.

Edmund

[BJL]

The one thing which no one here appears to consider is that with huge wafer size increases, "MF" sensors prices may now be heading well south of $1K whe purchased in "real" quantities, , enabling camera prices commensurate with FF within a couple of years. ...

The reason nobody is considering this lowball scenario is the brainwashing by inflated Phase and H prices ...

I do not see how huge wafers have much effect; they only modestly increase the fraction of the wafer than can be covered by sensors, especially given the industry practice of packing some smaller sensors into the gaps around the big ones.  As far as price comparisons, I look at Pentax not P1 or H, and there, apart from sensor size, the 645Z is equipped only about as well as the least expensive of 35mm format DSLRs (< $2000) so those are the models to compare with on costs and likely prices, not the top-of-the-line 35mm format DSLRs.

In that comparison, "entry level 44x33mm" format costs more than "entry level 35mm" by a factor of four or more, or a difference of $6000 or more.  So talk of sub-$1000 prices on 44x33mm sensors sounds like wishful thinking to me.  As to economies of scale, the system camera sales volume ratios from "bigger than 35m to "35mm" to "smaller than 35mm" is about 1:100:1000 and the vast entrenched lens systems in 35mm format and smaller, and the fact that these smaller formats are perceived as "good enough" by about 99.9% of photographers, make it very unlikely that any large format camera or sensor can get volume up enough to avoid a substantial price gap, in turn maintaining the difficulty of getting volume up ...


But perhaps I should leave people to their optimistic fantasies about a major shift towards bigger cameras; like most fantasies, they are probably harmless!

[BernardLanguillier]

As far as price comparisons, I look at Pentax not P1 or H, and there, apart from sensor size, the 645Z is equipped only about as well as the least expensive of 35mm format DSLRs (< $2000) so those are the models to compare with on costs and likely prices, not the top-of-the-line 35mm format DSLRs.

Isn't that a bit harsh on the 645Z?

In my view it is very close to the D800/5DIII in terms of physical specs, except probably in the AF domain where Pentax simply doesn't have the right components to compete with Nikon and Canon.

Cheers,
Bernard

[eronald]

I do not see how huge wafers have much effect; they only modestly increase the fraction of the wafer than can be covered by sensors, especially given the industry practice of packing some smaller sensors into the gaps around the big ones.  As far as price comparisons, I look at Pentax not P1 or H, and there, apart from sensor size, the 645Z is equipped only about as well as the least expensive of 35mm format DSLRs (< $2000) so those are the models to compare with on costs and likely prices, not the top-of-the-line 35mm format DSLRs.

In that comparison, "entry level 44x33mm" format costs more than "entry level 35mm" by a factor of four or more, or a difference of $6000 or more.  So talk of sub-$1000 prices on 44x33mm sensors sounds like wishful thinking to me.  As to economies of scale, the system camera sales volume ratios from "bigger than 35m to "35mm" to "smaller than 35mm" is about 1:100:1000 and the vast entrenched lens systems in 35mm format and smaller, and the fact that these smaller formats are perceived as "good enough" by about 99.9% of photographers, make it very unlikely that any large format camera or sensor can get volume up enough to avoid a substantial price gap, in turn maintaining the difficulty of getting volume up ...


But perhaps I should leave people to their optimistic fantasies about a major shift towards bigger cameras; like most fantasies, they are probably harmless!

My feeling or guess -as I am an idiot- is that standard wafer sizes have roughly tracked constant-yield area. I'm probably wrong. Go ahead and provide the constant yield area curves or similar if you have them  In the past I have found people exceptionally unwilling to provide yield data, but I probably didn't ask politely enough.

As for the rest, the electronics industry has always supplied me with fantasy hardware faster than I thought possible. The iPad is clearly as good as the Dynabook. Here we're talking about pricing chips which have already been designed. You think we haven't reached the point where MF cameras become accessible, I think we're getting there - this discussion will be laughable in 10 years.

Edmund

[lowep]

A 21st century Texas Leica?

hope it will work with my Mamiya 7 lenses 

[BJL]

My feeling or guess -as I am an idiot- is that standard wafer sizes have roughly tracked constant-yield area. I'm probably wrong. Go ahead and provide the constant yield area curves or similar if you have them  In the past I have found people exceptionally unwilling to provide yield data ...

So on that one, apparently neither of us has any data; so I will stick to the available data on prices, price ratios,and market share ratios between formats, which have not been kind to larger formats.

... the electronics industry has always supplied me with fantasy hardware faster than I thought possible. The iPad ...

Must it be said yet again: these wonders of "smaller, cheaper, faster, better" consumer electronic devices are primarily driven by increases in speed and reduction of power needs that in turn are largely driven by the downsizing of chips and of the features on them, not on anything that helps with the upsizing of chips. The drive towards 28nm, 22nm and even smaller process sizes is of little relevance to the cost of sensors for cameras in formats 35mm and up, where pixel pitches of 4880nm [D800] and up allow the use of older fab. processes with far larger feature sizes.  (For example, Canon uses 350nm or 500nm process for its SLR sensors, AFAIK.)

[eronald]

So on that one, apparently neither of us has any data; so I will stick to the available data on prices, price ratios,and market share ratios between formats, which have not been kind to larger formats.

I didn't say I had *no* data. I said I had no published data apart from the obvious wafer size evolution. I talk with various sources regularly, none want to be very precise or quoted but they do give tentative $numbers. I ask for sensor price quotes from semiconductor vendors and see how chip costs scale with size and time. Oh, and I know about elementary yield statistics as described at the start of this paper because every EE learns about those in school.  Note that in the thanks section of this paper the author also indicates his sources do not wish to be named.

Why don't you ask around a bit yourself, and come back after that.
l'll stick to my opinion that cheap and cheerful low end MF is coming. Camera companies will be able to pay the sensor and lens BOM, but not invest in things such as good AF systems or the programming of complex feature sets. The fixed-lens wide SWC clone is just one design that seems to fit the bill perfectly,next up may be the digital back for tech camera users

Maybe one should ask the question differently. Does Sony want this to occur? They have the only MF chip on th market for now that would allow a fairly low BOM, with low dev costs, and so they will determine when the bubble bursts.  

Edmund

[EinstStein]

There is another runner about Hasselblad in financial trouble, that HB might be on sale again.
Given the close relationship of HB ans FJ, the combination of the two rumors adds more colors.

[bcooter]

l'll stick to my opinion that cheap and cheerful low end MF is coming.

probably and Edmund that's been your stance ever since you feel you got burned by Phase, but remember there is no free lunch.

A smaller almost medium format camera for less, sure, it'll happen now that Sony has made the generic sensor, but will it work professionally, tether, have lens sets that are affordable, large buffer, software suites, bright viewfinders that you can manually and autofocus . . . the list goes on.

Cheap is easy.  Cheap and professional is hard.

AJA and Blackmagic have lowered the entry costs of digital cinema . . . especially AJA but when you add the numbers, take the chance that out of the box it's going to be right, then look around at what's available on the refurb, demo market you realize the entry costs are already pretty low.

Check out the prices of a refurb or dealer backed h4d40, or a Leica S2, IQ 40 mpx camera and at the end of the day, it's probably the same price as the Pentax with a lot more options in rental and the buy the lens used market.

IMO

BC

[Theodoros]

Fuji will never use a sensor not made by them... never! They'll never look like a "Sony follower" as if they don't have the appropriate technology themselves.... Everybody (even Canon) may.... but Fuji? ...never! It's like buying a Kodak film in a Fuji case... same kind of rumour it is!

[BernardLanguillier]

Fuji will never use a sensor not made by them... never! They'll never look like a "Sony follower" as if they don't have the appropriate technology themselves.... Everybody (even Canon) may.... but Fuji? ...never! It's like buying a Kodak film in a Fuji case... same kind of rumour it is!

Except that... they already do today.

Their current sensors are using a Sony sensor with a Fuji topping (filtering,...) and processing.

Cheers,
Bernard