post pentax 645z

[Iluvmycam]

I got 2 645D's. Will keep what I got. The high ISO of the Z is interesting. But the giant size compared to my Fuji or Leica hurts the deal. The sensor on the 645D puts out a beautiful, painterly image. I have 645D samples at the end here:

http://photographycompared.tumblr.com/

[Theodoros]

You mean to say that Pentax could saw the Z in two, and maybe even make a tech camera with shift that takes 6x7 Pentax lenses? No, that is clearly impossible. Insert reason here ...

Edmund

I don't know what you read Ed... I think that my English is better than what you imply... Why is it impossible for Pentax to offer an MFDB version of the "Z"...?    Who said anything about Pentax making a view camera? ...where did you read this?

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi,

It is not impossible, but the 645Z is integrated with the Pentax 645 body. Would Pentax make a back, they would to integrated it (electronically) with another vendor's camera. There are not so many MF camera vendors. Phase/Mamiya, Hasselblad and Rollei Hy6. Phase is supposedly open, but I don't know if they have their camera bodies open to a competitor. Hasselblad is pretty closed, the main reason Phase went into the camera business.

I would guess that it is feasible that Ricoh (who own Pentax) or Sony would buy Hasselblad if they were seriously interested in MF digital.

Hasselblad would be a good buy, I guess. Well established, probably the best interchangeable back MF camera, well designed accessory program and a great engineering team in Gothenburg.

Best regards
Erik

I don't know what you read Ed... I think that my English is better than what you imply... Why is it impossible for Pentax to offer an MFDB version of the "Z"...?    Who said anything about Pentax making a view camera? ...where did you read this?

[MrSmith]

what about fuji and their contribution to the H?

[david distefano]

Hi,

It is not impossible, but the 645Z is integrated with the Pentax 645 body. Would Pentax make a back, they would to integrated it (electronically) with another vendor's camera. There are not so many MF camera vendors. Phase/Mamiya, Hasselblad and Rollei Hy6. Phase is supposedly open, but I don't know if they have their camera bodies open to a competitor. Hasselblad is pretty closed, the main reason Phase went into the camera business.

I would guess that it is feasible that Ricoh (who own Pentax) or Sony would buy Hasselblad if they were seriously interested in MF digital.

Hasselblad would be a good buy, I guess. Well established, probably the best interchangeable back MF camera, well designed accessory program and a great engineering team in Gothenburg.

Best regards
Erik

could you see for example,  pentax designing a mfdb. even if it was the same price as the 645z and have it fit the hasselblad v system. i think they would clean up with all the v system cameras out there. one of hasselblad's biggest mistakes was to abandon the v system.  if it fit the v system it would also be able to be used on a tech camera with the v system adapter like i have for my arca swiss. again this is all based on the possibility of engineering such a product and the image quality being comparable to the phase one and  hasselblad cmos sensor.

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi,

Yes, quite possible, but…

Sony has an MF CMOS sensor now, it may be they are interested in MFD. Fuji seems not do much sensor development, at least no large size sensors. If they want to expand into MFD, Hasselblad would be a good buy.

Best regards
Erik

what about fuji and their contribution to the H?

[eronald]

Hi,

Yes, quite possible, but…

Sony has an MF CMOS sensor now, it may be they are interested in MFD. Fuji seems not do much sensor development, at least no large size sensors. If they want to expand into MFD, Hasselblad would be a good buy.

Best regards
Erik

As Fuji already manufacture the H bodies and lenses, Fuji would have little catching up to do

Edmund

[Theodoros]

The Fuji GX645 is a completely "open" system... if they where to make an MFDB it would be compatible with all their bodies, they don't have to buy Hasselblad to achieve that....

[uaiomex]

Two things have got me startled with disbelief. First, Hasselblad putting to a slow painful death the most solid sound MF system of all times, the V system. And second, Phase One buying a comatose camera brand, the Mamiya.
I think P1 didn't seek purchasing the Hy6 camera out of a rebound as first being excluded of the supporting group, Leaf, Rollei and Sinar. I think acquiring Leaf was a hell of a satisfaction. When they finally bought Mamiya, the Hy6 was kaput. Why not get the finest camera system when you are clearly the best MfDb manufacturer?
Now they are stuck with Mamiya. Fortunately, if Pentax did it, most certainly Mamiya can do it too. I don't know if the Hy6 system can be purchased but if I was Sony...... pocket change!
Eduardo

[Steve Hendrix]

Two things have got me startled with disbelief. First, Hasselblad putting to a slow painful death the most solid sound MF system of all times, the V system. And second, Phase One buying a comatose camera brand, the Mamiya.
I think P1 didn't seek purchasing the Hy6 camera out of a rebound as first being excluded of the supporting group, Leaf, Rollei and Sinar. I think acquiring Leaf was a hell of a satisfaction. When they finally bought Mamiya, the Hy6 was kaput. Why not get the finest camera system when you are clearly the best MfDb manufacturer?
Now they are stuck with Mamiya. Fortunately, if Pentax did it, most certainly Mamiya can do it too. I don't know if the Hy6 system can be purchased but if I was Sony...... pocket change!
Eduardo

It isn't always the purchase price but what the purchase does for you afterward, in terms of profitability. There were clearly issues behind the scenes that resulted in the insolvency status that F&H fell under. Phase One is presented as being stupid for not jumping in - but I haven't seen anyone give them credit for staying away. Ideally, I like our manufacture partners to be financially strong and robust. That could have sucked if Phase One had bought in early.

Sometimes the best deals made are the ones you don't.

Instead, they probably got a great deal with Mamiya, and were able to also acquire Leaf. They have not killed the Hy6 - though with control of Leaf, they could have done so. Adding Phase One into the DHW mix is probably seen as a financial and resource distraction, taking away from the efforts toward Mamiya (including whatever new camera system is being developed) and future digital back end R&D.

I'll say it again - sometimes the best deals are the ones you don't make. Sometimes a deal doesn't add so much as take away resources.

I'm not saying it isn't worth second guessing, but let's think about this more from their perspective, which isn't hey, let's buy the 3rd best camera system (perhaps in some people's minds), but maybe instead, let's move forward to position ourselves for our 5 - 10 year product plans. Financial viability is a big part of that.

Let's be real - who wouldn't like a Phase One digital back option on a Hy6 camera? But that is more about our desire for a camera we love than Phase One making the right or wrong strategic choices.


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration

[uaiomex]

Thanks for your reply. Certainly there was one or many powerful reasons for how things developed for P1 concerning the acquistion of Mamiya and Leaf.
Your (kind of) insight helps understand a bit these things that seem so incoherent for those at the outer side of the factories walls.
Unfortunately on behalf of Hasselblad, it is undefendable, I think.  but I may love to be proven wrong.
Eduardo

It isn't always the purchase price but what the purchase does for you afterward, in terms of profitability. There were clearly issues behind the scenes that resulted in the insolvency status that F&H fell under. Phase One is presented as being stupid for not jumping in - but I haven't seen anyone give them credit for staying away. Ideally, I like our manufacture partners to be financially strong and robust. That could have sucked if Phase One had bought in early.

Sometimes the best deals made are the ones you don't.

Instead, they probably got a great deal with Mamiya, and were able to also acquire Leaf. They have not killed the Hy6 - though with control of Leaf, they could have done so. Adding Phase One into the DHW mix is probably seen as a financial and resource distraction, taking away from the efforts toward Mamiya (including whatever new camera system is being developed) and future digital back end R&D.

I'll say it again - sometimes the best deals are the ones you don't make. Sometimes a deal doesn't add so much as take away resources.

I'm not saying it isn't worth second guessing, but let's think about this more from their perspective, which isn't hey, let's buy the 3rd best camera system (perhaps in some people's minds), but maybe instead, let's move forward to position ourselves for our 5 - 10 year product plans. Financial viability is a big part of that.

Let's be real - who wouldn't like a Phase One digital back option on a Hy6 camera? But that is more about our desire for a camera we love than Phase One making the right or wrong strategic choices.


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration

[Ben Rubinstein]

I wonder if the Hy6 would not have died if Phase One had been including them in deals like it did and does with the Mamiya junk? To be frank that is the only thing which saved that camera. The only thing keeping it alive.

[Steve Hendrix]

I wonder if the Hy6 would not have died if Phase One had been including them in deals like it did and does with the Mamiya junk? To be frank that is the only thing which saved that camera. The only thing keeping it alive.

First the Hy6 is not dead. And the future remains to be seen.

"Mamiya junk" is your opinion, of course.

But saying that Phase One investing is the only thing that kept them alive is not profound - you could make the same statement about almost any other medium format camera system.


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration

[eronald]

First the Hy6 is not dead. And the future remains to be seen.

"Mamiya junk" is your opinion, of course.

But saying that Phase One investing is the only thing that kept them alive is not profound - you could make the same statement about almost any other medium format camera system.


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration

Steve,

 While "Mamiya junk" is a pretty strong term, the very fact that it can be -and not for the first time- credibly written in this forum is pretty disturbing.
 No one here would ever write "Hasselblad H junk", as far as I know.
 Sometimes the best product to have is a good product, not a good enough product.

Edmund

[Steve Hendrix]

Steve,

 While "Mamiya junk" is a pretty strong term, the very fact that it can be -and not for the first time- credibly written in this forum is pretty disturbing.
 No one here would ever write "Hasselblad H junk", as far as I know.
 Sometimes the best product to have is a good product, not a good enough product.

Edmund

From the manufacturers's standpoint, the best product to have is one that allows your company to be successful (and sustain that success). Whether the Mamiya for Phase, the H for Hasselblad or the Hy6 for DHW is best at that remains to be seen.

Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration

[eronald]

From the manufacturers's standpoint, the best product to have is one that allows your company to be successful (and sustain that success). Whether the Mamiya for Phase, the H for Hasselblad or the Hy6 for DHW is best at that remains to be seen.

Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration

Steve,

I have deleted some political commentary from my post.

However, I would like to leave you with a thought: If the "winner" of the business strategy game ends up offering a solution that no customer likes to live with, and MF disappears because very few can be convinced to use the products or can afford the pricing, will that help *you* ?

I don't think users who refer to "Mamiya junk" will be inclined to buy that junk if is the only product on offer. We are not talking about the only water in the desert, we're talking about cameras that employ slightly bigger sensors than their dSLR competition.

Edmund

[EricWHiss]

First the Hy6 is not dead. And the future remains to be seen.

Thanks Steve, and yes the Hy6 is doing well.  

And on the other topic, it does seem sort of ironic to me that the companies that tried to protect themselves to competition by closing out others got hurt the most.

[Steve Hendrix]

Steve,

I have deleted some political commentary from my post.

However, I would like to leave you with a thought: If the "winner" of the business strategy game ends up offering a solution that no customer likes to live with, and MF disappears because very few can be convinced to use the products or can afford the pricing, will that help *you* ?

Microsoft has had some interesting difficulties in the past few years, which can in the end be traced to overstrong business acumen that allowed them to keep selling  inadequate products. As MS essentially achieved a monopolistic position by dint of business competence rather than product quality, most computer manufacturers are now hurting.

Edmund

Edmund -

You're incorrect that "no customer likes to live with" the P1 solution. The vast majority of our sales occur on Phase One 645 bodies, though clients have the option of numerous other systems, including the Hasselblad.

Now don't get me wrong - I'm not saying it's the worlds greatest camera, but I am also not saying that it is the height of Phase One's ambitions (in terms of camera systems).

I will respond by saying all of this is early in the book and I believe that your perspective is pre-mature in terms of how the story will continue to develop.

I don't know about your Microsoft perspective, but I don't see the same situation at all with Phase One anyway. It may appear that way to you, but Microsoft has shown their business strategy for a far longer period of time than Phase One has had investment into the Mamiya company. Phase One has generally achieved in their segment by having superior products and technology - the Mamiya camera is not their legacy nor their crowning achievement, it is a starting point to a sustainable digital platform. While they have turned it around since then, at the time, it was hard to imagine how sustainable DHW might be. And those were the options at the time.

I think Phase One did well with the hand it was dealt - and we'll see where they head in the future, when it comes to camera systems. I of course know nothing - but it wouldn't surprise me to see surprises.


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi,

I read a lengthy interview with Hasselblad's CEO at that time the closed the system. He essentially said that the earnings were in the backs and not in the system. Farther, they felt that they could choose a smaller sensor and optimise the system around it.

That of course made Phase One a vendor of MFD backs with no camera to put their backs on. Phase made the decision to make a controlling investment Mamiya, which was a bold decision for a small electronics company. They could go with the Hy6 instead, but that was not their choice.

It seems going into Mamiya was a successful investment.

As a side note, rumour was that Phase One tried to acquire rights to Contax 645 manufacture and tools set, but negotiations were not successful.

I would like to see Hasselblad surviving, I don't thing it is history is where they belong, but we live in a world of harsh realities, a company needs significant earnings to survive. In a real world there is need for a lot of R&D so just reaching break even is not enough to keep a company afloat. But it happens that companies that have not made earning for a long time can come alive again, Leica is an example of that. But, Leica also developed a new camera platform, new lenses, paid for development for a new CMOS sensor and also bought Sinar. They expand, may be needed to survive.

Best regards
Erik

[EricWHiss]

They could go with the Hy6 instead, but that was not their choice.

This is incorrect.  They didn't have a choice then when the Hy6 was introduced.   They could now but in a way they do with the Leaf backs.