Pages: 1 [2] 3 4   Go Down

Author Topic: Pentax 645Z vs Phase One & Hasselblad  (Read 34940 times)

tjv

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 135
Re: Pentax 645Z vs Phase One & Hasselblad
« Reply #20 on: May 06, 2014, 04:31:36 pm »

I thought the Phase back was also 14bit? I seem to remember some mumblings about this a while back...
Logged

ErikKaffehr

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11311
    • Echophoto
Re: Pentax 645Z vs Phase One & Hasselblad
« Reply #21 on: May 06, 2014, 04:35:32 pm »

Hi,

I agree with Paul, I mostly do. The P45+ back I have is well made and the newer backs are probably quite nice. Paul's observations on tethering are correct, but it is quite probable that the P645Z will work decently well with Lightroom. You use the manufacturers application for shooting. BCooter works this way with his Leica S2 and he seems quite happy.

An advantage with the P645D was that the body was weather proofed, the late Miles Hecker has used the P645D in real awful weather conditions with great satisfaction. He's reviews are here:
http://wyofoto.com/Pentax_645D/Pentax_645D_review_pt1.html
http://wyofoto.com/Pentax_645D/Pentax_645D_review_pt2.html

Pentax says, probably with some justification, that they can build the body to very good precision due to the tight integration.

Being able to use the MFD back with technical cameras is an obvious advantage with a removable back.

The final question is of course how the Pentax 645Z will affect the competition. The P645D did probably do little harm to the competition, but the situation may be different now. One aspect may be that Pentax/Ricoh may be solidly standing behind the product and offering a large set of lenses. It may have been the case that the P645D was mainly an offer for existing customers of the P645 looking for a digital option.

Best regards
Erik
It is an old question and only the only real answer is will photographers continue to purchase the IQ250 when the P645z does ship.  There are some things to take into consideration however.

1.  The Phase One backs, all the way back to the P45+/P25+ family of mid 2007 early 2008 were very well made.  I have owned several different backs and have always felt that they were rock solid.  Sure when one needed service, it had to most times go back to Denmark, but Pentax will be going back to Japan, as they don't currently have a service center in the U.S. (not sure on Europe).  The Value Add warranty from Phase  is a great asset to the owner and it moves with the back if you sell it.  4 years plus the base warranty and during all those years, a loaner back delivered to your business most times within 24 hours.  Sure you can purchase 2 645z's, but to me that is not a smart move.  It behooves you to purchase a Phase One back from a authorized dealer as that is the designed front end.  It's very hard to reach out to Phase One directly, that is what the dealer is for besides many other things.

2.  The DF+ body is long in the tooth I agree, but for landscape work it did OK for me till I moved on to the tech body.  The body of the 645z should be much more advanced in features for sure.

3.  The 645z is a fixed body, thus no ability to move to a tech solution.  The ability to have a removable back, which allows me to work with a tech camera/lenses is an important feature.  Pentax has a bit of a hill to climb on lenses.  Currently their line up is in a bit of disarray.  They seem to bringing back the old FA series from 2003-2008 as these are now listed again on the BH website, but the only current modern wide is the 25mm which is as much as the Mamiya/Phase 28mm. 

4.  If you are looking for a 1/1600 flash sync, then I don't think Pentax has any LS style modern lenses. There are some very old 67 LS lenses, but not sure if they are going to adapt to the 645z and allow the 1/1600 flash sync.

6.  Tethering solution, Phase has this figured out, period.  Still not sure if the 645z will have a USB3 tethering solution, if so who's software.  So far all they have mentioned is a wifi solution, but that is not the same thing, as there is no way you will be able to transfer the full files via wifi.  The 645z has  USB3 so hopefully a software solution will available to tether.  Yes it took Phase a long time to get to USB3, but they did! and it works! excellently.

I realize there is huge gap between the two, but only purchases over time will determine if the gap will close any due to price reductions by Phase One.

Paul
Logged
Erik Kaffehr
 

HarperPhotos

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1309
    • http://www.harperphoto.com
Re: Pentax 645Z vs Phase One & Hasselblad
« Reply #22 on: May 06, 2014, 04:44:58 pm »

Hello Tjv,

Yes you are correct the information from Phase/Leaf that there backs shoot 16bit is marketing BS or in other words a lie.

Cheers

Simon
Logged
Simon Harper
Harper Photographics Ltd
http://www.harperphoto.com
http://www.facebook.com/harper.photographics

Auckland, New Zealand

ErikKaffehr

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11311
    • Echophoto
Re: Pentax 645Z vs Phase One & Hasselblad
« Reply #23 on: May 06, 2014, 05:15:59 pm »

How fast is that Volvo of yours? The speedometer goes to 150 MPH!

Best regards
Erik

Hello Tjv,

Yes you are correct the information from Phase/Leaf that there backs shoot 16bit is marketing BS or in other words a lie.

Cheers

Simon
Logged
Erik Kaffehr
 

ronniemac

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7
Re: Pentax 645Z vs Phase One & Hasselblad
« Reply #24 on: May 06, 2014, 09:48:04 pm »

Paul, on Pentax lenses:

It is correct to point out that most (14) of Pentax's lens line up is old, i.e. screw drive autofocus, not weather sealed, and designed for their film MF cameras.  Not all, but some (e.g. 35mm, 120mm & 150mm) of these are still excellent quality.  In relative terms these are not expensive, the price probably being pegged down by the used lens market.  The 25mm is indeed new, and so is the 55mm and the 90mm macro.  I think these are all weather sealed, and at least one has SDM autofocus.  They are expensive, but it would be possible to buy these three and the body plus quite a few FA lenses for less than a P1 back.

Pentax have published a 645 lens roadmap which indicates three new zoom lenses including one wide angle zoom, which will probably be released this year.....but I shouldn't count my chickens!  :D

I don't see many Hassy or P1 owners or organisations wanting to switch systems for many of the reasons you state, it would be too much of a wrench.  On the other hand, professional photographers considering moving into MF may well be tempted, especially if there are limited funds to invest.  Amateurs like myself who are interested in landscape and architecture, however, are beginning to think that maybe the Pentax 645Z will just be affordable, especially coming from a Pentax 645N system with a fair crop of FA lenses.  I suspect there are quite a few in a similar position to myself and this is most likely to comprise much of the 645Z market - i.e. photographers new to MF.  The poor development of fast synch flash speeds, use of flu card instead of tethering, fixed integrated backs, etc., will not appeal to the high end professional market who require a tech solution.

In the UK we are fortunate to have a good dealer network of Pentax Pro dealers, (n.b. they have continued to sell the full range of 645 lenses).  Is it not likely that if the 645Z takes off, then surely a Pro dealer network and service centre would follow?  But yes, it should be the other way round.

Looking forward to reviews of the Z,

Ronnie.




Logged

synn

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1235
    • My fine art portfolio
Re: Pentax 645Z vs Phase One & Hasselblad
« Reply #25 on: May 06, 2014, 09:59:45 pm »

The real question is,

Why do people continue buying Audis when a Skoda offers pretty much the same platform for a lot less?
Logged
my portfolio: www.sandeepmurali.com

ErikKaffehr

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11311
    • Echophoto
Re: Pentax 645Z vs Phase One & Hasselblad
« Reply #26 on: May 06, 2014, 10:56:52 pm »

A good question.

On the other hand, a young lady I happen to know was longing for an Audi TT and was saving until she could buy her dream car. Pretty soon, after owning that Audi for a couple of months she found out that it was pretty uninspiring and replaced it with a Volvo S40 which was a fun car to drive. A pretty smart lady, by the way.

A guy whom I also happen to know got rid of his BMW at wreck price, because he was tired of all problems and got a small Citroën instead. A pretty smart guy, by the way.

Best regards
Erik



The real question is,

Why do people continue buying Audis when a Skoda offers pretty much the same platform for a lot less?
Logged
Erik Kaffehr
 

klane

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 931
  • I live in a c-stand fort.
Re: Pentax 645Z vs Phase One & Hasselblad
« Reply #27 on: May 06, 2014, 11:05:22 pm »

I say buy what works for you. Work flow and personal preference to ergonomics go a lot further than numbers. (sometimes the numbers count though :) )
Logged

synn

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1235
    • My fine art portfolio
Re: Pentax 645Z vs Phase One & Hasselblad
« Reply #28 on: May 06, 2014, 11:59:56 pm »

A good question.

On the other hand, a young lady I happen to know was longing for an Audi TT and was saving until she could buy her dream car. Pretty soon, after owning that Audi for a couple of months she found out that it was pretty uninspiring and replaced it with a Volvo S40 which was a fun car to drive. A pretty smart lady, by the way.

A guy whom I also happen to know got rid of his BMW at wreck price, because he was tired of all problems and got a small Citroën instead. A pretty smart guy, by the way.

Best regards
Erik




Anecdotal evidence counts as fact, right?
I actually know a few people who saved up for Audis and are still driving and enjoying them.

Pretty smart people, by the way.
Logged
my portfolio: www.sandeepmurali.com

ErikKaffehr

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11311
    • Echophoto
Re: Pentax 645Z vs Phase One & Hasselblad
« Reply #29 on: May 07, 2014, 12:29:07 am »

Hi,

The two stories I mention are facts, as they really have happened. I wouldn't say they are anecdotal. If you retell the story, it would be anecdotal, because the information would be hearsay.

The story I tell essentially says your mileage may vary.

Best regards
Erik



Anecdotal evidence counts as fact, right?
I actually know a few people who saved up for Audis and are still driving and enjoying them.

Pretty smart people, by the way.
Quote
A good question.

On the other hand, a young lady I happen to know was longing for an Audi TT and was saving until she could buy her dream car. Pretty soon, after owning that Audi for a couple of months she found out that it was pretty uninspiring and replaced it with a Volvo S40 which was a fun car to drive. A pretty smart lady, by the way.

A guy whom I also happen to know got rid of his BMW at wreck price, because he was tired of all problems and got a small Citroën instead. A pretty smart guy, by the way.

Best regards
Erik

« Last Edit: May 07, 2014, 12:31:44 am by ErikKaffehr »
Logged
Erik Kaffehr
 

Ken R

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 849
Re: Pentax 645Z vs Phase One & Hasselblad
« Reply #30 on: May 07, 2014, 01:12:15 am »

Just for the record, the 645Z is not available yet. The H5D-50c and the IQ250 are.

Also, New, recently introduced PhaseOne backs have never been high value items. The IQ250 is no exception. It does not make it a bad product. Let's not forget that it is a back that can be used in a wide range of systems. It is great to have that option available in the market. Would it be great for it to be much lower in price? Absolutely. That applies to a lot of things.

You want the highest image quality for your dollar? Look elsewhere than even the 645Z.
Logged

ErikKaffehr

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11311
    • Echophoto
Re: Pentax 645Z vs Phase One & Hasselblad
« Reply #31 on: May 07, 2014, 01:28:43 am »

Hi

Really relevant comments. You don't happen to having a background accounting?

Best regards
Erik

Why not? It is first-mover advantage (FMA) to charge whatever they want or can get away with. Then, of course, competition arrives at some point and puts the pressure on the FMA price. Time will tell whether it will drive this price significantly down. Let's face it, they are not exactly identical products, even if the specs are. The most important part is interchangeability: backs can be used on systems and with lenses pros already have (or different systems if rented), while with Pentax, they are locked in and have to buy everything new (unless they've been already with Pentax). If you are a newcomer to the medium format, then, yes, Pentax is a serious contender.
Logged
Erik Kaffehr
 

ErikKaffehr

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11311
    • Echophoto
Re: Pentax 645Z vs Phase One & Hasselblad
« Reply #32 on: May 07, 2014, 01:34:16 am »

Hi,

Just to make a small point, the IQ-250 is 14 bit according to Phase One marketing. It is the CCD backs that claims to be 16 bit. Phase One claims 14 EV (14 bits) of DR for the IQ-250 and 13 EV (13 bits) of DR for the I-260 and the IQ-280. That essentially means that 7/8 of the 16 bit signal from the CCD-backs is noise. So yes, you get more noise for Dollar, but less bang for the buck.

Best regards
Erik

this has been discussed so many times. you are paying for a better dealer group. better service if you have problems. the ability to use on different camera bodies as well as tech cameras. better lens lineup. 16 bit vs. 14 bit. and you are paying a premium for the name. it is up to each person considering a purchase  of the product if it is worth the extra money.
Logged
Erik Kaffehr
 

synn

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1235
    • My fine art portfolio
Re: Pentax 645Z vs Phase One & Hasselblad
« Reply #33 on: May 07, 2014, 01:43:25 am »

Hi,

The two stories I mention are facts, as they really have happened. I wouldn't say they are anecdotal. If you retell the story, it would be anecdotal, because the information would be hearsay.

The story I tell essentially says your mileage may vary.

Best regards
Erik




My point was that people have different priorities and reasons and not everyone makes a purchase decision based on the sticker price of the commodities. Unfortunately, sarcasm isn't your forte.
Logged
my portfolio: www.sandeepmurali.com

ErikKaffehr

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11311
    • Echophoto
Re: Pentax 645Z vs Phase One & Hasselblad
« Reply #34 on: May 07, 2014, 02:09:06 am »

Hi,

Let's say it this way I am not very impressed by your sarcasm.

Just to make a small point the reason my colleague dumped the Audi for the Volvo was not the sticker price but the extra 80 HP and the driveable chassi. She simply found the Audi TT boring.

I can also add that I feel it is perfectly OK to be a bit polite.

Best regards
Erik

Another anecdote fact is that the Audi TT caused a lot of serious accidents, because it lost down force on the back axis at high speeds (at around 180 km/h). The company needed to redesign the chassis, with the well know lift spoiler on the back, stiffer chassis and other modifications including electronic stability control.

http://www.nytimes.com/2000/02/20/automobiles/audi-offers-tt-fix-after-5-deaths.html



My point was that people have different priorities and reasons and not everyone makes a purchase decision based on the sticker price of the commodities. Unfortunately, sarcasm isn't your forte.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2014, 03:06:56 am by ErikKaffehr »
Logged
Erik Kaffehr
 

synn

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1235
    • My fine art portfolio
Re: Pentax 645Z vs Phase One & Hasselblad
« Reply #35 on: May 07, 2014, 02:21:45 am »

it might help if you can remember that I don't post exclusively for you, not am I talking literally while making analogies.
Logged
my portfolio: www.sandeepmurali.com

MrSmith

  • Guest
Re: Pentax 645Z vs Phase One & Hasselblad
« Reply #36 on: May 07, 2014, 04:30:05 am »

The real question is,

Why do people continue buying Audis when a Skoda offers pretty much the same platform for a lot less?

For the same reason people buy leica compact cameras that are polished by hand for hours.
Logged

ronniemac

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7
Re: Pentax 645Z vs Phase One & Hasselblad
« Reply #37 on: May 07, 2014, 08:44:21 am »

I guess Pentax must be putting time into polishing glass* instead of aluminum - see link.

http://www.ricoh-imaging.co.jp/english/products/645z/ex/img/ex-pic02.jpg (click on image to view full size)

Clearly the Pentax 645 D FA90mm macro is not appropriate for portraits, far too many blemishes show up, but fun for the pixel peeper!

* Of course, Leica do that as well.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2014, 08:48:12 am by ronniemac »
Logged

Ken R

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 849
Re: Pentax 645Z vs Phase One & Hasselblad
« Reply #38 on: May 07, 2014, 08:53:51 am »

I guess Pentax must be putting time into polishing glass* instead of aluminum - see link.

http://www.ricoh-imaging.co.jp/english/products/645z/ex/img/ex-pic02.jpg (click on image to view full size)

Clearly the Pentax 645 D FA90mm macro is not appropriate for portraits, far too many blemishes show up, but fun for the pixel peeper!

* Of course, Leica do that as well.

Perfect of example of how digital can make skin look like plastic. Yikes! I am gonna give the 645Z the benefit of the doubt and blame this one the jpg processing.
Logged

ronniemac

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7
Re: Pentax 645Z vs Phase One & Hasselblad
« Reply #39 on: May 07, 2014, 09:01:39 am »

I guess we see what we want to.  To my eye the plastic effect is an outcome of make-up, restrained as it is except around the eyes.

If you want real skin, maybe look at the shoulder.  Pity it's not in focus, but it ain't plastic.
Logged
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4   Go Up