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Author Topic: Pentax 645Z vs Phase One & Hasselblad  (Read 34937 times)

OldHickory30

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Pentax 645Z vs Phase One & Hasselblad
« on: May 06, 2014, 11:49:02 am »

Having owned several P1's and Hasselblad, I was contemplating returning to Phase One until the Pentax 645z came out, utilizing the same Sony sensor, with considerably more functionality. People have questioned the fact several times on P1's forums why the IQ250 is 400% more then the 645Z, the specs are identical, of course we don't have any solid field tests of the 645z, however the 645z, does also include wether sealing, video capability, and an unbelievable ISO range, with what looks like a simple UI.
Phase One has become quite defensive on the forums, even locking people out of the when the question is posed, what am I getting for 400% more in cost?
My gut feeling is Pentax has accepted lower margins being a much larger organization. I have been shooting commercially for 20+ years with a technology background, and in my opinion, when shooting in RAW, the sensor and the lens are pretty much what makes up the image. So again why is the P1 IQ250 $ 34K and the Pentax is $8496... a 400% difference!
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david distefano

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Re: Pentax 645Z vs Phase One & Hasselblad
« Reply #1 on: May 06, 2014, 12:16:29 pm »

Having owned several P1's and Hasselblad, I was contemplating returning to Phase One until the Pentax 645z came out, utilizing the same Sony sensor, with considerably more functionality. People have questioned the fact several times on P1's forums why the IQ250 is 400% more then the 645Z, the specs are identical, of course we don't have any solid field tests of the 645z, however the 645z, does also include wether sealing, video capability, and an unbelievable ISO range, with what looks like a simple UI.
Phase One has become quite defensive on the forums, even locking people out of the when the question is posed, what am I getting for 400% more in cost?
My gut feeling is Pentax has accepted lower margins being a much larger organization. I have been shooting commercially for 20+ years with a technology background, and in my opinion, when shooting in RAW, the sensor and the lens are pretty much what makes up the image. So again why is the P1 IQ250 $ 34K and the Pentax is $8496... a 400% difference!

this has been discussed so many times. you are paying for a better dealer group. better service if you have problems. the ability to use on different camera bodies as well as tech cameras. better lens lineup. 16 bit vs. 14 bit. and you are paying a premium for the name. it is up to each person considering a purchase  of the product if it is worth the extra money.
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Go Go

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Re: Pentax 645Z vs Phase One & Hasselblad
« Reply #2 on: May 06, 2014, 12:22:22 pm »

The real question remains to be answered, and only time will tell the whole story.

How many 645Z cameras will actually be bought by users?

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Pentax 645Z vs Phase One & Hasselblad
« Reply #3 on: May 06, 2014, 12:41:12 pm »

Just to be pedantic: it is 300% more (or difference), not 400% ;)

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Pentax 645Z vs Phase One & Hasselblad
« Reply #4 on: May 06, 2014, 12:51:25 pm »

... So again why is the P1 IQ250 $ 34K and the Pentax is $8496...

Why not? It is first-mover advantage (FMA) to charge whatever they want or can get away with. Then, of course, competition arrives at some point and puts the pressure on the FMA price. Time will tell whether it will drive this price significantly down. Let's face it, they are not exactly identical products, even if the specs are. The most important part is interchangeability: backs can be used on systems and with lenses pros already have (or different systems if rented), while with Pentax, they are locked in and have to buy everything new (unless they've been already with Pentax). If you are a newcomer to the medium format, then, yes, Pentax is a serious contender.

OldHickory30

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Re: Pentax 645Z vs Phase One & Hasselblad
« Reply #5 on: May 06, 2014, 12:54:33 pm »

8300 x 400% = $33,200 The IQ 250 is $34,900 and change unless my calculator is broke? ;D
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OldHickory30

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Re: Pentax 645Z vs Phase One & Hasselblad
« Reply #6 on: May 06, 2014, 12:57:10 pm »

Paying for a better dealer group, like Calumet, who recently filed Chapter 7 and closed their doors overnight? Besides I'd rather deal with the OEM.
Regarding service, I will say, servicing my P1's in the past, was certainly nothing to write home about, in addition the backs had to be shipped internationally, through the dealer. Also each P1 back is deigned for a particular camera body. As far as the the glass, that  will be something that really needs to be compared in the field. Yes, 14 vs 16 bit, I will give you that one but then again, you really only benefit off a 16bit file when doing high-end graphics. Your right, this topic has been discussed several times but I think it's import when your talking the VAST difference in cost, 400%!. P1 and Hassy used to have the MF market exclusively, that's certainly going to change.
Good news for photographers, regarding cost and options. The 645z is an industry disrupter and so far looks like for the good.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Pentax 645Z vs Phase One & Hasselblad
« Reply #7 on: May 06, 2014, 12:57:23 pm »

... Yes, 14 vs 16 bit, I will give you that one...

No need to... check this thread here on LuLa: 16 Bit Myth

OldHickory30

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Re: Pentax 645Z vs Phase One & Hasselblad
« Reply #8 on: May 06, 2014, 01:00:55 pm »

Totally agree...I still remember paying over 2k for my original Canon 5D 10years ago and was told by the dealer that, 12mp was as far as DSLR's could be pushed.
Technology has a way of reducing the cost while improving the product.
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OldHickory30

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Re: Pentax 645Z vs Phase One & Hasselblad
« Reply #9 on: May 06, 2014, 01:06:14 pm »

Thanks! Actually I have my D800E RAW files @14bit and still have many P1 P45+ files @16 bit, the difference is negligible.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Pentax 645Z vs Phase One & Hasselblad
« Reply #10 on: May 06, 2014, 01:15:01 pm »

... unless my calculator is broke? ;D

It isn't, but it can not read our minds. It translates 400% as 4x, which is wrong or right depending on context. Since you are using the context of "more" or "difference," it is wrong.

You can say 32K is 400% OF 8K, just as you can say 8K is 100% OF 8K.

But the moment you say "more" or "difference" the game changes:

If you add, say 25% MORE to 8K, it becomes 10K (i.e., 8 x 1.25 = 10)

If you add 100% MORE to 8K, it becomes 16K, or 2x more

If you add 200% MORE to 8K, it becomes 24K, or 3x more

If you add 300% MORE to 8K, it becomes 32K, or 4x more

I know, I know, the basic confusion between percentage share and percentage growth. :)

OldHickory30

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Re: Pentax 645Z vs Phase One & Hasselblad
« Reply #11 on: May 06, 2014, 01:36:06 pm »

How about if I say it's a hell / heck of a lot more?   ;D
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Pentax 645Z vs Phase One & Hasselblad
« Reply #12 on: May 06, 2014, 01:45:11 pm »

Hi,

My guess is that Phase One & Co lives in an echosystem with high prices. They cannot increase production without great expense and they have a lot of people to feed. So prices are high.

It seems that Pentax is willing to make the P6545Z with low margins. Their echosystem is fed by both Ricoh and Pentax sales. Pentax can also reuse existing technology from other camera systems.

Best regards
Erik

Having owned several P1's and Hasselblad, I was contemplating returning to Phase One until the Pentax 645z came out, utilizing the same Sony sensor, with considerably more functionality. People have questioned the fact several times on P1's forums why the IQ250 is 400% more then the 645Z, the specs are identical, of course we don't have any solid field tests of the 645z, however the 645z, does also include wether sealing, video capability, and an unbelievable ISO range, with what looks like a simple UI.
Phase One has become quite defensive on the forums, even locking people out of the when the question is posed, what am I getting for 400% more in cost?
My gut feeling is Pentax has accepted lower margins being a much larger organization. I have been shooting commercially for 20+ years with a technology background, and in my opinion, when shooting in RAW, the sensor and the lens are pretty much what makes up the image. So again why is the P1 IQ250 $ 34K and the Pentax is $8496... a 400% difference!
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Jim Kasson

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Re: Pentax 645Z vs Phase One & Hasselblad
« Reply #13 on: May 06, 2014, 01:58:42 pm »

...Phase One & Co lives in an echosystem with high prices.

Love it, Erik, whether it was intentional or not.

Jim

david distefano

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Re: Pentax 645Z vs Phase One & Hasselblad
« Reply #14 on: May 06, 2014, 01:59:33 pm »

Paying for a better dealer group, like Calumet, who recently filed Chapter 7 and closed their doors overnight? Besides I'd rather deal with the OEM.
Regarding service, I will say, servicing my P1's in the past, was certainly nothing to write home about, in addition the backs had to be shipped internationally, through the dealer. Also each P1 back is deigned for a particular camera body. As far as the the glass, that  will be something that really needs to be compared in the field. Yes, 14 vs 16 bit, I will give you that one but then again, you really only benefit off a 16bit file when doing high-end graphics. Your right, this topic has been discussed several times but I think it's import when your talking the VAST difference in cost, 400%!. P1 and Hassy used to have the MF market exclusively, that's certainly going to change.
Good news for photographers, regarding cost and options. The 645z is an industry disrupter and so far looks like for the good.

 i hope you did not think i was being argumentative. the reasons i gave imo are the perceived differences between the camera platforms by different photographers. i agree that the prices for some backs are out of line but only the market can dictate prices. if people continue to pay the extra money for a phase one or hasselblad db at the prices that they charge and both companies stay profitable than there is nothing any of us can do.
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MrSmith

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Re: Pentax 645Z vs Phase One & Hasselblad
« Reply #15 on: May 06, 2014, 02:14:54 pm »

"you are paying a premium for the name"

I really struggle with this concept. The software is great but the backs and cameras have hardly amazed with their construction or user interface and the glacial introduction of working USB3 and screen that was usable was a joke.
The warmed over mamiya bodies are certainly not worthy of being called "premium"
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OldHickory30

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Re: Pentax 645Z vs Phase One & Hasselblad
« Reply #16 on: May 06, 2014, 02:25:08 pm »

No problem, I understand, I certainly was not trying to be argumentative either. However, based on the cost difference it's something that Hassy and P1 need to address. You are correct, if people are willing to pay a premium, why not, although up until now there has been zero options in regards to MF, so we'll see.
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OldHickory30

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Re: Pentax 645Z vs Phase One & Hasselblad
« Reply #17 on: May 06, 2014, 02:34:01 pm »

You are exactly right regarding construction on the P1. I do like C1 software just can't justify 35k then another 3-5k in glass.
The 645z looks appears to have solid construction while taking many features like the focusing points, from their DSLR line. The H3 was almost impossible to handle when I shot on location or had to travel with it and the current HD-50 is around 30k!

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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Pentax 645Z vs Phase One & Hasselblad
« Reply #18 on: May 06, 2014, 03:07:46 pm »

Jim,

Not intentional, but I won't fix it as you like it:-)

Best regards
Erik

Love it, Erik, whether it was intentional or not.

Jim
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Paul2660

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Re: Pentax 645Z vs Phase One & Hasselblad
« Reply #19 on: May 06, 2014, 04:14:11 pm »

It is an old question and only the only real answer is will photographers continue to purchase the IQ250 when the P645z does ship.  There are some things to take into consideration however.

1.  The Phase One backs, all the way back to the P45+/P25+ family of mid 2007 early 2008 were very well made.  I have owned several different backs and have always felt that they were rock solid.  Sure when one needed service, it had to most times go back to Denmark, but Pentax will be going back to Japan, as they don't currently have a service center in the U.S. (not sure on Europe).  The Value Add warranty from Phase  is a great asset to the owner and it moves with the back if you sell it.  4 years plus the base warranty and during all those years, a loaner back delivered to your business most times within 24 hours.  Sure you can purchase 2 645z's, but to me that is not a smart move.  It behooves you to purchase a Phase One back from a authorized dealer as that is the designed front end.  It's very hard to reach out to Phase One directly, that is what the dealer is for besides many other things.

2.  The DF+ body is long in the tooth I agree, but for landscape work it did OK for me till I moved on to the tech body.  The body of the 645z should be much more advanced in features for sure.

3.  The 645z is a fixed body, thus no ability to move to a tech solution.  The ability to have a removable back, which allows me to work with a tech camera/lenses is an important feature.  Pentax has a bit of a hill to climb on lenses.  Currently their line up is in a bit of disarray.  They seem to bringing back the old FA series from 2003-2008 as these are now listed again on the BH website, but the only current modern wide is the 25mm which is as much as the Mamiya/Phase 28mm. 

4.  If you are looking for a 1/1600 flash sync, then I don't think Pentax has any LS style modern lenses. There are some very old 67 LS lenses, but not sure if they are going to adapt to the 645z and allow the 1/1600 flash sync.

6.  Tethering solution, Phase has this figured out, period.  Still not sure if the 645z will have a USB3 tethering solution, if so who's software.  So far all they have mentioned is a wifi solution, but that is not the same thing, as there is no way you will be able to transfer the full files via wifi.  The 645z has  USB3 so hopefully a software solution will available to tether.  Yes it took Phase a long time to get to USB3, but they did! and it works! excellently.

I realize there is huge gap between the two, but only purchases over time will determine if the gap will close any due to price reductions by Phase One.

Paul
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Paul Caldwell
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