Pages: [1] 2   Go Down

Author Topic: Adjustments for web jpeg  (Read 5155 times)

Wayne Fox

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4237
    • waynefox.com
Adjustments for web jpeg
« on: May 01, 2014, 04:29:33 pm »

I’ve seen this discussed before, but none of the search terms I’m trying is turning up what I’m looking for.  Basic problem is familiar, files adjusted to look good when printing and look good on a correctly calibrated/profiled display look washed out on the average persons display who has it turned up way too bright.

I’ve been experimenting with some density/saturation adjustments that may offer a better result for this, just wondering what others do and what workflow seems to make it work.  I think I could do it pretty easy with an adjustment layer in my photoshop action that resizes and adds borders, but any thoughts as to how much (can’t go too far or it looks like crap on someone who has their display dimmed down some).  Been experimenting, just wondering what others may have found works pretty good.

(The reason I put this on the LR forum is also wondering if there is an easy way to automate this if outputting directly from LR.)
« Last Edit: May 01, 2014, 05:29:59 pm by Wayne Fox »
Logged

Slobodan Blagojevic

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 18090
  • When everyone thinks the same, nobody thinks
    • My website
Re: Adjustments for web jpeg
« Reply #1 on: May 01, 2014, 05:01:21 pm »

I often noticed I have to add ⅓ exposure in LR when saving for web. My layman explanation is that the jpeg compression and conversion to sRGB profile are to blame, possibly also the reduction in size (i.e., the visual perception of smaller sizes makes them look darker). I also noticed that my iPhone is a good indicator how it will look on the web.

Alistair

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 293
Re: Adjustments for web jpeg
« Reply #2 on: May 01, 2014, 08:04:29 pm »

I’ve seen this discussed before, but none of the search terms I’m trying is turning up what I’m looking for.  Basic problem is familiar, files adjusted to look good when printing and look good on a correctly calibrated/profiled display look washed out on the average persons display who has it turned up way too bright.

I’ve been experimenting with some density/saturation adjustments that may offer a better result for this, just wondering what others do and what workflow seems to make it work.  I think I could do it pretty easy with an adjustment layer in my photoshop action that resizes and adds borders, but any thoughts as to how much (can’t go too far or it looks like crap on someone who has their display dimmed down some).  Been experimenting, just wondering what others may have found works pretty good.

(The reason I put this on the LR forum is also wondering if there is an easy way to automate this if outputting directly from LR.)

Not sure if this is what you mean and you may already know about it but you can have LR run PS actions on files after export. So you can export your files (as JPEG - whatever) to a folder and then have PS run the actions automatically and then you can upload the adjusted files to your website either via a repeated export using a publish service in LR or via a normal FTP to your website. This video explains the first part (invoking the PS action from the export dialogue) quite well:


No doubt there are other ways too that others will come in with.

All the best.
Logged
Alistair

digitaldog

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 20630
  • Andrew Rodney
    • http://www.digitaldog.net/
Re: Adjustments for web jpeg
« Reply #3 on: May 01, 2014, 08:18:17 pm »

I’ve seen this discussed before, but none of the search terms I’m trying is turning up what I’m looking for.  Basic problem is familiar, files adjusted to look good when printing and look good on a correctly calibrated/profiled display look washed out on the average persons display who has it turned up way too bright.
If their display is turned up too bright, there's nothing you can do about. Probably a population of users with really old displays that are too dark (or too blue, etc).
It sounds like you're saying the RGB values are OK. They print fine, they preview fine on your end. It's all those other people who's displays are off. Again, nothing you can do about it but educate them that their displays are wonky. If you 'fix' this by darkening, then doesn't it look wrong on your display and everyone's display that are OK?
Logged
http://www.digitaldog.net/
Author "Color Management for Photographers".

Wayne Fox

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4237
    • waynefox.com
Re: Adjustments for web jpeg
« Reply #4 on: May 02, 2014, 12:05:21 am »

Not sure if this is what you mean and you may already know about it but you can have LR run PS actions on files after export.
Yes, I currently have a droplet set as my external application in my export dialog for web jpegs, which does quite a few steps, including step down resizing, adding border, etc.  I could easily add an adjustment layer to this action/droplet.  I was curious if anyone else does this, if so how much do they think works, and if there was anyway to do this from LR. I don't see a way to add a preset to the LR export or output to jpeg from print module. In the print module I guess you could use the new print module density slider.

If their display is turned up too bright, there's nothing you can do about. Probably a population of users with really old displays that are too dark (or too blue, etc).
It sounds like you're saying the RGB values are OK. They print fine, they preview fine on your end. It's all those other people who's displays are off. Again, nothing you can do about it but educate them that their displays are wonky. If you 'fix' this by darkening, then doesn't it look wrong on your display and everyone's display that are OK?
I guess my thought process is most who view my work that might be potential buyers are doing so on their brand new iMac or some brand of PC that has a default profile and has the brightness turned all the way up.  I'm really not sure I"m concerned how they look on my computer once I put them on the web, I'm just wondering if it would be better to darken them down just a bit to make up for the average person blasting all that light through them (and wondering if it is that simple ... or am I venturing down that frequently referred to "slippery slope" trying to second guess what's out there)  :)
« Last Edit: May 02, 2014, 12:07:35 am by Wayne Fox »
Logged

Alistair

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 293
Re: Adjustments for web jpeg
« Reply #5 on: May 02, 2014, 01:00:22 am »

Yes, I currently have a droplet set as my external application in my export dialog for web jpegs, which does quite a few steps, including step down resizing, adding border, etc.  I could easily add an adjustment layer to this action/droplet.  I was curious if anyone else does this, if so how much do they think works, and if there was anyway to do this from LR. I don't see a way to add a preset to the LR export or output to jpeg from print module. In the print module I guess you could use the new print module density slider.

No the export presets don't do what you want but there is a print to jpeg option in the print module that might suit your workflow. It puts a border around the print etc. and you can size the output using the print resolution setting combined with print size. I have not used it much myself but it is definitely worth a look to see if it will do what you want.
Logged
Alistair

TonyW

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 643
Re: Adjustments for web jpeg
« Reply #6 on: May 02, 2014, 02:27:22 am »

...I'm just wondering if it would be better to darken them down just a bit to make up for the average person blasting all that light through them (and wondering if it is that simple ... or am I venturing down that frequently referred to "slippery slope" trying to second guess what's out there)  :)
Just my 2 cents but I think you may be approaching that 'slippery slope'.  If the average users are all using monitors that have too high a brightness setting then  all images they are viewing from whatever source will appear the same and be something they have got used to even though it may be far removed from what the image creator intended.  

So if you try and adjust your image to compensate to display 'correctly' and even if you get it right for the majority of users it is just possible that they may see it as being a poor image due to being so used to viewing 'washed out' images.  Short of trying to educate viewers of your images with some form of instructions on how the monitor should be set to display the image correctly e.g. a step wedge at the bottom of every image with instructions to adjust monitor brightness to be able to see seperation in both low and high values, I think that you may be better off just producing the best images you can within your calibrated environment. 

Pity you cannot add a visible/invisible watermark that displays 'IF you can read this your monitor brightness settings way out' when ideal settings are not reached but invisible when appropriate brightness set  ;D
« Last Edit: May 02, 2014, 02:36:31 am by TonyW »
Logged

Simon Garrett

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 742
Re: Adjustments for web jpeg
« Reply #7 on: May 02, 2014, 03:29:55 am »

Just my 2 cents but I think you may be approaching that 'slippery slope'.  If the average users are all using monitors that have too high a brightness setting then  all images they are viewing from whatever source will appear the same and be something they have got used to even though it may be far removed from what the image creator intended.  

I agree.  If you adjust your images so that they look OK for "potential buyers" with monitors way too bright they'll look wrong for "potential buyers" with monitors set correctly.  And what about monitors that are too warm, too cool, too contrasty...

Trying to anticipate in which way a bad monitor is bad... no, that way madness lies. 

Why not just put a notice on the web site: "Too see these images at their best, you should use a calibrated and profiled monitor, and a colour-managed web browser (not Internet Explorer)". 
Logged

D Fosse

  • Guest
Re: Adjustments for web jpeg
« Reply #8 on: May 02, 2014, 03:43:31 am »

+1

My philosophy on this is very simple: it's their problem, not mine.

As long as I know the file is right that ends my responsibility right there. How people choose to set up their systems is their business.
Logged

digitaldog

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 20630
  • Andrew Rodney
    • http://www.digitaldog.net/
Re: Adjustments for web jpeg
« Reply #9 on: May 02, 2014, 10:07:33 am »

... or am I venturing down that frequently referred to "slippery slope" trying to second guess what's out there)  :)
Yes!
What you could do is build in sRGB and in a color managed app, a 21 step wedge from black to white, or something smaller and along those lines.  Include that somewhere on the web page and inform people viewing it that if they don't see the steps, their display needs to be calibrated and your images will not preview correctly.
Logged
http://www.digitaldog.net/
Author "Color Management for Photographers".

Wayne Fox

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4237
    • waynefox.com
Re: Adjustments for web jpeg
« Reply #10 on: May 02, 2014, 03:53:45 pm »

My philosophy on this is very simple: it's their problem, not mine.

I guess theoretically true, but if they think my images don’t look good so they just move on or aren’t interested, seems that’s a problem for me.


I agree.  If you adjust your images so that they look OK for "potential buyers" with monitors way too bright they'll look wrong for "potential buyers" with monitors set correctly.  And what about monitors that are too warm, too cool, too contrasty...

Trying to anticipate in which way a bad monitor is bad... no, that way madness lies.  

Why not just put a notice on the web site: "Too see these images at their best, you should use a calibrated and profiled monitor, and a colour-managed web browser (not Internet Explorer)".  
Yes!
What you could do is build in sRGB and in a color managed app, a 21 step wedge from black to white, or something smaller and along those lines.  Include that somewhere on the web page and inform people viewing it that if they don't see the steps, their display needs to be calibrated and your images will not preview correctly.

The challenge of trying to get normal end purchasers to understand and do this seems pretty daunting.  Bill Atkinson a few years ago I believe tried this, he had a calibration page on his web site with a step wedge with instructions on setting the density.  I notice he no longer has this.

I’ve never ventured down this path before, but I guess lately I’ve been looking at it a little differently lately.  I notice when I post a image on social media, and my friends look at it on their devices it doesn’t look as good.  I have a display that is correctly calibrated and profiled specifically to yield an image which matches to my fairly well trained eye what I get on a print.  My goal for my display isn’t to display my work, it’s to help me predict what my printer is going to produce - and to be honest isn’t ideal for some other things typically done on a computer.  

To the 99.999999% of the world out there to whom I hope  might stumble across my work (wishful thinking, but we all have to hope), I know that odds are pretty good (95%? 98%? 99.9%?) their display is substantially brighter than mine, and similar probability it is a little bluer than mine, just because I’ve seen many times what the default is for displays and operating systems.

So rather than continuing to swim upstream, I began considering if there should be slight tweak for a file that is specifically purposed for display on all of those systems out there that may yield a slightly better result for those viewers, but still would look OK for someone whose display is set a little dimmer or in fact is calibrated and profiled.

I appreciate all the feedback.  I may mess around with this a little by putting up a test site and then going to my local best buy and apple stores and pulling it up on the displays that are there.  Side by sides of current jpegs and possible tweaks.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2014, 03:57:06 pm by Wayne Fox »
Logged

ErikKaffehr

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11311
    • Echophoto
Re: Adjustments for web jpeg
« Reply #11 on: May 02, 2014, 04:16:24 pm »

Hi,

I have noticed this, too. But, I would suggest that some of the effect is coming from the fact that images in LR are normally shown against a dark background while many websites show the images small on predominantly bright background. May images look good on "SmartMug" but awful on "Flickr".

Best regards
Erik

quote author=Wayne Fox link=topic=89529.msg729838#msg729838 date=1398976173]
I’ve seen this discussed before, but none of the search terms I’m trying is turning up what I’m looking for.  Basic problem is familiar, files adjusted to look good when printing and look good on a correctly calibrated/profiled display look washed out on the average persons display who has it turned up way too bright.

I’ve been experimenting with some density/saturation adjustments that may offer a better result for this, just wondering what others do and what workflow seems to make it work.  I think I could do it pretty easy with an adjustment layer in my photoshop action that resizes and adds borders, but any thoughts as to how much (can’t go too far or it looks like crap on someone who has their display dimmed down some).  Been experimenting, just wondering what others may have found works pretty good.

(The reason I put this on the LR forum is also wondering if there is an easy way to automate this if outputting directly from LR.)
[/quote]
Logged
Erik Kaffehr
 

digitaldog

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 20630
  • Andrew Rodney
    • http://www.digitaldog.net/
Re: Adjustments for web jpeg
« Reply #12 on: May 02, 2014, 05:00:06 pm »

I guess theoretically true, but if they think my images don’t look good so they just move on or aren’t interested, seems that’s a problem for me.
Then don't show your images on a media of which you can't control to people who would move on if their method of viewing images if flawed.
Quote
The challenge of trying to get normal end purchasers to understand and do this seems pretty daunting.  Bill Atkinson a few years ago I believe tried this, he had a calibration page on his web site with a step wedge with instructions on setting the density.  I notice he no longer has this.
There is lots of things Bill doesn't have on his site he had in the past. Also, maybe he's given up attempting to do what you hope to do and has moved on trying to get people viewing his images incorrectly to fix their end of what is their problem.
There's nothing you can do other than explain to this group how to understand if their display's are incorrect and fix it.
Quote
I have a display that is correctly calibrated and profiled specifically to yield an image which matches to my fairly well trained eye what I get on a print.
But prior to soft proofing for output, the images look good. And after soft proofing, the images and the print look good. So your RGB values are good! You're now proposing to make the RGB values wrong so they look good on other's displays that are wrong. Two wrongs don't make a right. And further, the people who's displays are correct will see the images looking wrong. How is that a good fix? It isn't.
Quote
My goal for my display isn’t to display my work, it’s to help me predict what my printer is going to produce - and to be honest isn’t ideal for some other things typically done on a computer.  
The goal covers both! It's to ensure the RGB values are correct.
Quote
To the 99.999999% of the world out there to whom I hope  might stumble across my work (wishful thinking, but we all have to hope), I know that odds are pretty good (95%? 98%? 99.9%?) their display is substantially brighter than mine, and similar probability it is a little bluer than mine, just because I’ve seen many times what the default is for displays and operating systems.
That's simply a huge assumption on your part. Short of going over and viewing you images on 95%? 98%? 99.9%? of potential users displays, there's no way to know what they have their displays set to. Some will be using 12 year old CRT's that can't hit 70cd/m2. Some will be using new LCD's set at whatever came from the factory that might be producing 250cd/m2. Some will be using wide gamut displays outside of an ICC aware web browser. You simply can't predict what all those people see short of looking at your images on their systems. Do you really think this group of users all have the displays close to each other, but somehow, your display is 'wrong' despite a match to the prints which you state look good? This entire venture if fruitless. If you provide them something they can view that isn't ambiguous, like a step wedge, at least you've given them the information they need to see how bad their display is, but probably will not act on to alter the display so it's providing the correct RGB values correctly. And the step wedge isn't going to help with color a lick. So you have one person who's CCT white point is 6500K and another who's viewing the same image at 9300K. There is absolutely nothing you can do about that.
You print the best quality image possible. How does it appear to the observer viewing it under a 6 watt nightlight bulb instead of using proper illumination? Too dark. There's nothing wrong with your print, there's something wrong with an idiot who would view a print that way and further, say it's a poor print because it's too dark! And decide not to buy that print because it's too dark.
Quote
So rather than continuing to swim upstream, I began considering if there should be slight tweak for a file that is specifically purposed for display on all of those systems out there that may yield a slightly better result for those viewers, but still would look OK for someone whose display is set a little dimmer or in fact is calibrated and profiled.
Pointless but if it makes you feel better, if you really believe that tweak will apply to more users who might view your images, go for it. It will at least make you feel better.

Logged
http://www.digitaldog.net/
Author "Color Management for Photographers".

Slobodan Blagojevic

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 18090
  • When everyone thinks the same, nobody thinks
    • My website
Re: Adjustments for web jpeg
« Reply #13 on: May 02, 2014, 05:23:31 pm »

I sympathize with Wayne's dilemma.

At the risk of angering the experts, let me ask this: are we sure our monitors are properly calibrated, and Joe Schmoes' aren't? Our monitors are indeed properly calibrated, at least brightness-wise, but for one purpose only: matching the print. So we dim them until they do. General public couldn't care less about that and have their monitors adjusted for a simple pleasure of viewing it. Is there really a doubt which one is nicer to look at? Prints with their limited brightness and contrast ratio (and monitors set to match them), or brilliant, contrasty, light-emitting monitors? Perhaps a Cibachrome or similar print, on a high-gloss surface, with carefully matched background and impeccable gallery lighting can approach a bright, brilliant monitor, but how many Joe Schmoes would have such an experience to compare? Photographers and coloraties are not our clients, Joe Schmoes are.

digitaldog

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 20630
  • Andrew Rodney
    • http://www.digitaldog.net/
Re: Adjustments for web jpeg
« Reply #14 on: May 02, 2014, 05:31:51 pm »

At the risk of angering the experts, let me ask this: are we sure our monitors are properly calibrated, and Joe Schmoes' aren't?
In the resolution of this issue, it doesn't matter.
Quote
Our monitors are indeed properly calibrated, at least brightness-wise, but for one purpose only: matching the print. So we dim them until they do.
I don't. I understand that the print viewing conditions are critical and they can be raised and lowered. Yes, if I were viewing my prints using a 6 watt night light blub, I'd have the display calibrated as low as possible in a vain attempt to produce a match. But I don't use a 6 watt night light bulb or anything like it to view my prints.

The "general pulbic", whatever that is supposed to mean or include has their displays all over the planet. And that's the issue. Kind of like the saying, make a product idiot proof and only an idiot will be able to use it. Do we really care that some guy with a 15 year old display that's totally out of wack will see Wayne's image, think it's too dark or light and decide not to buy it? Or that they would even recognize it's too dark or too light just when viewing Wayne's site but nowhere else?
Logged
http://www.digitaldog.net/
Author "Color Management for Photographers".

Keith Reeder

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 253
    • Capture The Moment
Re: Adjustments for web jpeg
« Reply #15 on: May 03, 2014, 03:48:48 pm »

seems that’s a problem for me.

It's a problem for all of us, so you're no worse off than anyone else whose images they might look at after yours.
Logged
Keith Reeder
Blyth, NE England

JRSmit

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 922
    • Jan R. Smit Fine Art Printing Specialist
Re: Adjustments for web jpeg
« Reply #16 on: May 04, 2014, 03:47:15 am »

It's a problem for all of us, so you're no worse off than anyone else whose images they might look at after yours.
It is indeed a problem. Also when printing for customers. I focus on high quality prints and with new customers i now standard check the image brightness and confact the customer if it appears off to me. The other day i had a case where a full stop of exposure was added. (I use LR for all my printing)
The customer had not calibrated or profiled his display at all.
For display on web i did check (or asked someone to check) sometimes. Nowadays in case of a discussion i check with smartphone or tablet. If ok it is ok for me. If someone persist in using a display that is way off, then it is his choice and if i miss business then so be it.
Logged
Fine art photography: janrsmit.com
Fine Art Printing Specialist: www.fineartprintingspecialist.nl


Jan R. Smit

Hans Kruse

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2106
    • Hans Kruse Photography
Re: Adjustments for web jpeg
« Reply #17 on: May 04, 2014, 05:38:46 am »

I’ve seen this discussed before, but none of the search terms I’m trying is turning up what I’m looking for.  Basic problem is familiar, files adjusted to look good when printing and look good on a correctly calibrated/profiled display look washed out on the average persons display who has it turned up way too bright.

I’ve been experimenting with some density/saturation adjustments that may offer a better result for this, just wondering what others do and what workflow seems to make it work.  I think I could do it pretty easy with an adjustment layer in my photoshop action that resizes and adds borders, but any thoughts as to how much (can’t go too far or it looks like crap on someone who has their display dimmed down some).  Been experimenting, just wondering what others may have found works pretty good.

(The reason I put this on the LR forum is also wondering if there is an easy way to automate this if outputting directly from LR.)

Wayne, I looked at your image gallery on my calibrated 30" screen, my iPad and my wife's 27" Apple thunderbolt display which is uncalibrated with her MacBook Pro. They looked different, but in all cases they looked good. I don't think anybody would leave the gallery because of the way they look on the screen and only if they were not interested in them. It's btw. not entirely clear why you worry. Are you not selling enough pictures? Or how do you otherwise know that there is a problem?

So, I would say your have wonderful pictures and you don't have to worry ! If people like your pictures the technicalities is much less important than what the pictures show of composition, subject, scene, light, mood, tone, etc. Just my opinion.

For my part I adjust the pictures to how I like my pictures to look on my big monitor. On my MacBook Pro 15" retina which is calibrated I always adjust the screen brightness to the room I'm in using a greyscale to balance it in the given light. Usually when I come home from a trip where I have adjusted pictures they look either as I want them on the big display or need minor adjustments.

Alan Goldhammer

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4344
    • A Goldhammer Photography
Re: Adjustments for web jpeg
« Reply #18 on: May 04, 2014, 08:34:39 am »

Personally I think this is a hopeless quest.  I really don't do much more than use the LR web gallery features or the save to JPEG for individual shots.  If they look good on my monitor that's the end of it.  In 99% of the cases LR does a fantastic job of creating excellent JPEGs for the web and I don't need to do anything more.  You cannot possibly account for all the different monitors and brightness settings in the real world.  I was up in Philadelphia for a family gathering yesterday and pulled up my website on my cousin's computer and the the images were just terrible (they looked many times better on my new Galaxy S5 phone!), very washed out from too much brightness and a monitor with poor color rendition (don't know what the settings were).  More often than not this is the real world out there and 90% (or more) of the users could care less.

Andrew Rodney commented on posting a 21 step B/W wedge so that viewers could adjust their own monitors.  Roger Clark did this on his website a long time ago (he used 17 steps) suggesting that brightness and contrast should be adjusted for optimum viewing.  Is anyone confident that the average viewer even knows how to adjust his/her monitor.  I posit that a lot them don't change any setting at all after taking the monitor/laptop out of the box.  I think that Firefox is still the only browser out there that offers some type of color management ability but it's not easy to set up.  IMO images tend to look better on the average cell phone or tablet than on a computer.

Logged

Jim MSP

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 55
Re: Adjustments for web jpeg
« Reply #19 on: May 04, 2014, 10:42:44 am »

..More often than not this is the real world out there and 90% (or more) of the users could care less.
...

IMO, this is the key, and 90% is probably quite low. I believe that because I see all of the very poor photos that my family and friends post on Facebook - and all of the people who then comment "great photo". Most of these photos come from their phones.

Jim
Logged
Pages: [1] 2   Go Up