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Author Topic: Suggestion for new monitor  (Read 21709 times)

Czornyj

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Re: Suggestion for new monitor
« Reply #20 on: April 24, 2014, 03:01:29 pm »

Indeed and it's such a mess we the community need to find a way to get the big, big shots at NEC to look at this and fix it. I know for a fact the US folks at NEC are equally frustrated by these limitations.
That's not a bad idea - EU users are frustrated by the fact they have to pay more for inferior software, and have no upgrade option of PA series (other than getting the Spectraview II software from US).
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Marcin Kałuża | [URL=http://zarzadzaniebarwa

D Fosse

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Re: Suggestion for new monitor
« Reply #21 on: April 24, 2014, 03:02:52 pm »

I really hope that this NEC is epic as you say guys, it is making me really suffer :D

The pain will go away, but the reward is lasting. Do it.

I'm a case in point. I've spent the last couple of years buying reasonably good monitors - but was never entirely happy with any of them. No more. Now I want the real deal.
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Chiotas

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Re: Suggestion for new monitor
« Reply #22 on: April 24, 2014, 03:04:45 pm »

So, the EU version of Spectraview II is different from the US one????

I really want to purchase the PA272 EU version, but I would like to be sure there is not any "block" on the Spectraview II US edition

Czornyj

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Re: Suggestion for new monitor
« Reply #23 on: April 24, 2014, 03:09:19 pm »

Again - there's european "Spectraview Profiler v5.3" software, and US "Spectraview II v1.1.16.2" software.
European PA-series have blocked full hardware calibration option in european Spectraview Profiler software, which only works with NEC Spectraview and Spectraview Reference series displays. US Spectraview II supports all PA-series display, no matter where they came from. Quite insane - isn't it? ;D
« Last Edit: April 24, 2014, 03:11:17 pm by Czornyj »
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Czornyj

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Re: Suggestion for new monitor
« Reply #24 on: April 24, 2014, 03:23:58 pm »

Not sure I can ever bring myself to trust that little...thingie...that pops up from the bezel with a little whirring sound, though, but I still have my i1 Display 3 sensor and have been using that for now.

This "little thingie" is Konica-Minolta colorimeter. Chances are it's more accurate than i1D3 on CG246.
In Spectraview II there's a very precise spectral calibration of NEC PA242W done by X-Rite for i1D3 with Konica-Minolta CS-1000 spectroradiometer, but CG246's ColorNavigator works only with generic "RG Phosphor" i1D3 calibration, which was taken from infamous Dell U2413 and doesn't necessarily match EIZO PLS G-Br backlight spectra. Samsung cheaped out of PLS backlight, and only covered B LED with R phosphor, so the display spectra is a bit different and gamut is a tiny bit smaller than in case of LG AH-IPS GBr LED in NEC PAxx2 series. That's probably the reason why they had to put a fan inside ;)
« Last Edit: April 24, 2014, 03:25:35 pm by Czornyj »
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Marcin Kałuża | [URL=http://zarzadzaniebarwa

D Fosse

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Re: Suggestion for new monitor
« Reply #25 on: April 24, 2014, 05:30:45 pm »

OK, I'll try to digest that overnight. Might try the thingie tomorrow.

Do you know for a fact that they use a PLS panel? According to a prad.de review I read Eizo won't say. But I notice that it doesn't have the IPS white glow that I notice on the P232, it's really black from even extreme angles.
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Czornyj

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Re: Suggestion for new monitor
« Reply #26 on: April 24, 2014, 05:49:25 pm »

CG246 has Samsung LTM240CL02-N01 panel - PLS with G-Br backlight, satin diffuser, without 2D brightness control (as far as my measurements were correct). It features OCF, so the light leaking is significantly reduced - unless it has edge bleeding issues, usually in the right upper corner:


« Last Edit: April 24, 2014, 05:56:33 pm by Czornyj »
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Marcin Kałuża | [URL=http://zarzadzaniebarwa

Alan Klein

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Re: Suggestion for new monitor
« Reply #27 on: April 25, 2014, 12:14:21 am »

I have the PA242W with Spectraview II (SVII) and live in the US.  "Powered by X-rite" is stamped on the sensor and on the instruction manual that came with the SVII.  Not sure who produced the software that drive the NEC monitor.  Maybe there's some agreement between NEC and X-rite about distributing competing systems in Europe.  That may be why there are different models for the US and Europe.

In any case, why don't you put your mind to rest and phone NEC here in the US and confirm all your concerns.  Ask them what's up and what will happen.  I've spoken to their tech people about other things.  They seem to be very up front with their answers. 

Alan Klein

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Re: Suggestion for new monitor
« Reply #28 on: April 25, 2014, 12:19:42 am »

Well, you can't say they're not up to date now  ;D


Never used the SVII software memory that came with the software.  I had called NEC to check some things with their techs regarding cables and installing the software and setting it up.  They gave me the link to their latest SVII software which I downloaded and installed.  I still needed the product code though to make it work.

Chiotas

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Re: Suggestion for new monitor
« Reply #29 on: April 25, 2014, 06:01:41 am »

Again - there's european "Spectraview Profiler v5.3" software, and US "Spectraview II v1.1.16.2" software.
European PA-series have blocked full hardware calibration option in european Spectraview Profiler software, which only works with NEC Spectraview and Spectraview Reference series displays. US Spectraview II supports all PA-series display, no matter where they came from. Quite insane - isn't it? ;D

EPIC!
Ok, I'll place my order for the PA272W from a locale EU vendor and the SpecraviewII from B&H!
Thank you guys!


D Fosse

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Re: Suggestion for new monitor
« Reply #30 on: April 25, 2014, 06:24:21 pm »

CG246 has Samsung LTM240CL02-N01 panel - PLS with G-Br backlight, satin diffuser, without 2D brightness control (as far as my measurements were correct). It features OCF, so the light leaking is significantly reduced - unless it has edge bleeding issues, usually in the right upper corner

What's OCF?

I've done a few calibration runs with the internal sensor vs. the i1D3, and there is a barely perceptible difference in overall gray balance. I can't say that one is more "correct" than the other, just different shades of neutral. But the beauty is that if I should decide to prefer the external sensor, the internal one can be correlated to match. Nice.

All in all I'm very impressed with ColorNavigator. It's very logically structured and well thought out, every bit as good as SVII.

About the display itself there really isn't anything to say. It simply disappears - poof - from the whole equation. Only the fan is left, like the Cheshire cat grin... ;)

...just kidding. On my machine, right next to it, the motherboard alone has six fans, each of which makes more noise than the one in the Eizo. The CPU is water-cooled, but it wouldn't make any difference if it wasn't.

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Czornyj

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Re: Suggestion for new monitor
« Reply #31 on: April 26, 2014, 05:04:57 am »

OCF stands for Optical Compensation Film, which in case of CG246 is retardation film.

i1D3 has dichroic filters with near perfect CIE colour matching functions, so even if the spectral calibration is not perfect it's not a tragedy - the visual effect shouldn't vary too much. You'd need a reference spectroradiometer to check which one works better (it doesn't really matter in real world applications). If you're inquisitive, you may search for ISF certified calibrator in your area and ask him if has some JETI Specbos, Photo Research 6xx-7xx or Konica-Minolta CS spectroradiometer, they tend to have such (expensive) toys.

As for ColorNavigator -  check Preferences>Measurement device>Compensation table: Multiple monitor matching function. CG246 backlight is prone to observer metamerism, so after calibration you may perceive it as "greenish", but you may get rid of that by changing the default compensation table (that changes CMF from CIE 1931 2° to CIE 1964 10°).

Note that CN creates LUT TRC with measured black value reflected in the shape of curve. If it will cause some problems, you may change it while creating calibration target (Customize profile>Profile policy> change Tone curve: from LUT (recommended) to gamma value (http://www.argyllcms.com/doc/gamma.html)
« Last Edit: April 26, 2014, 05:57:47 am by Czornyj »
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Marcin Kałuża | [URL=http://zarzadzaniebarwa

Czornyj

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Re: Suggestion for new monitor
« Reply #32 on: April 26, 2014, 05:14:14 am »

Ok, I'll place my order for the PA272W from a locale EU vendor and the SpecraviewII from B&H!
Very wise choice, you'll gonna love PA272W ;)
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Marcin Kałuża | [URL=http://zarzadzaniebarwa

D Fosse

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Re: Suggestion for new monitor
« Reply #33 on: April 26, 2014, 07:12:53 am »

OCF stands for Optical Compensation Film, which in case of CG246 is retardation film.

Ah, that makes sense. Aside from gamut, the most striking aspect of the CG246 versus the P232 (yes, I know that's an unfair comparison), is the total absence of the IPS off-angle white glow - which, truth be told, is very pronounced on the P232.

Quote
As for ColorNavigator -  check Preferences>Measurement device>Compensation table: Multiple monitor matching function. CG246 backlight is prone to observer metamerism, so after calibration you may perceive it as "greenish", but you may get rid of that by changing the default compensation table (that changes CMF from CIE 1931 2° to CIE 1964 10°).

I'll try that. If pressed to describe the difference between the two sensors, greenish is the word I'd use for the internal sensor, but as I said it's only a slight hint, nothing dramatic.

Actually I saw the very same thing with my old EasyPix-calibrated Flexscan, using the Eizo-branded Spyder3 sensor. I just compensated by moving the white point a tad towards magenta and didn't think much more of it. In practice it doesn't matter much and color reproduction as such isn't really affected.

Maybe Eizo's idea of neutral just happens to be a little greener than mine? That's almost how it looks. Come to think of it I also have an Eizo Foris (that I haven't used for a while), and I think that was a little greenish too. I used the same EasyPix/EX-1 calibration for that.

Anyway, thanks for the tips -
« Last Edit: April 26, 2014, 07:30:18 am by D Fosse »
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Czornyj

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Re: Suggestion for new monitor
« Reply #34 on: April 26, 2014, 07:58:05 am »

In case of Spyder3 it's impossible to draw any conclusions. It's too imprecise and there's too much inter instrument variation, as an effect it's more or less a lottery.
http://www.drycreekphoto.com/Learn/Calibration/MonitorCalibrationHardware.html

Apart from that, it's definitely not Eizo's "idea of neutrality" - it's a more common problem:
http://mysite.verizon.net/rajeevramanath/Research/observerMetamerism-CRA-09.pdf
« Last Edit: April 26, 2014, 08:01:16 am by Czornyj »
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Marcin Kałuża | [URL=http://zarzadzaniebarwa

D Fosse

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Re: Suggestion for new monitor
« Reply #35 on: April 26, 2014, 08:33:25 am »

No argument, just puzzling. Anyway I've never seen it with the i1D3, with any display or any calibrator.
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Chiotas

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Re: Suggestion for new monitor
« Reply #36 on: April 29, 2014, 04:18:49 am »

Dear friends,
I finally placed my order for the PA272W from a local reseller and for the SpectraViewII from B&H :)
I really can't wait to receive everything :D
I started to study both PA272W and SpecraviewII manuals, and I have those two (stupid) question:

- Is there any difference (resolution/quality) connecting the monitor to my computer (MacBook Pro retina) through miniDisplay instead of HDMI?
- Is there a "right" way to calibrate the monitor through SpectraViewII? After reading the manual, it seems that everything is automated and the only thing to do is to press "Calibrate" button after selecting a "Target" from the list..(is that an Hardware calibration??)

Honestly, I'm not sure to getting the difference between hardware and software calibration. I mean, I know that hardware calibration should act on the LTU, but it is not clear if I do that pressin "calibration" button or I have to do with the "Update Internal Calibration window"

As far as I understand, "Calibration" button do the software calibration and create de ICC profile, the with the "Update Internal Calibration window" I load the created ICC in the LTU..is it correct.

Sorry if I wrote any blasphemy :D

D Fosse

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Re: Suggestion for new monitor
« Reply #37 on: April 29, 2014, 07:21:01 am »

Hardware calibration means adjusting the monitor in its internal circuitry, in high-bit precision. For this to work the software needs to communicate directly with the monitor.

Software calibration means doing the same adjustments in the video card. This is an 8-bit pipeline with restricted precision, and the net result is often color/luminance banding, and other artifacts.

The icc profile is independent of this. That's a complete and detailed description of the monitor's response in its now calibrated state. The profile doesn't adjust anything, it just describes - but it can describe many more parameters than what can be corrected during calibration, so it takes accuracy to a higher level. The profile is only used in a color managed environment, however.

When you calibrate you need to set the targets - white point temperature and luminance, contrast range and gamma. The main purpose is to match screen to output. For instance, you want monitor white to be a visual equivalent to paper white. You need to experiment a little to find the right values, but start out with 6500K, 120 cd/m2, and contrast 350:1 (or thereabouts). Gamma should just be close to native (2.2). It'll be remapped in a color managed environment and you won't see any difference with different gamma values - outside color management you will see a difference and 2.2 is the general standard.

« Last Edit: April 29, 2014, 07:32:24 am by D Fosse »
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marklamond

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Re: Suggestion for new monitor
« Reply #38 on: July 13, 2014, 09:45:47 am »


Thanks for the great info in this thread, it's cleared up a lot of questions I had.

Chiotas, how did you get on with your NEC PA272W and SpectraViewII calibration pack?

I'm in the UK and was going for either a NEC SpectraView 272 (Part Number 60003546) or an Eizo CX271 but am very interested to hear how the NEC PA272W and SpectraViewII pack performs.

NEC really do need to sort out their model line-up. I was really confused why I couldn't get certain products in Europe.

Thanks,
Mark.


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Czornyj

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Re: Suggestion for new monitor
« Reply #39 on: July 13, 2014, 10:17:00 am »

but am very interested to hear how the NEC PA272W and SpectraViewII pack performs.

To make long story short - go for it!
SpectraView II performs better with PAxx2 series than SpectraView Profiler - it makes better use of internal SpectraView engine and has more precise spectral calibration for X-Rite i1Display Pro and NEC SpectraSensor Pro.
Another advantage of SpectraView II is that it copes well with excellent NEC Multiprofiler software, that might be very useful in many cases. Last but not least - you can use SpectraView II to calibrate virtually all newer NEC EA-series panels, which are more affordable, and as such might be appealing for multiple monitor setup, where - for example - you use PA272W as a main, colour critical workhorse, and EA274WMi as additional display, etc.

Lately I've found this shop in DE who has SpectraView II in offer - seems like it's getting popular in EU:
http://www.idealo.de/preisvergleich/MainSearchProductCategory.html?q=spectraview+II
« Last Edit: July 13, 2014, 10:18:32 am by Czornyj »
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Marcin Kałuża | [URL=http://zarzadzaniebarwa
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