Pages: 1 [2]   Go Down

Author Topic: p25/+ and p45/+  (Read 8245 times)

Alexey

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 314
Re: p25/+ and p45/+
« Reply #20 on: April 21, 2014, 08:04:53 pm »

LEAF APTUS II 5 raw file
I like it ))) I never got these colors from P25+

http://www.mamiyaleaf.com/images/samples/aptus-II_5/L_000555.zip
Logged

david distefano

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 127
Re: p25/+ and p45/+
« Reply #21 on: April 21, 2014, 08:19:20 pm »

it looks like my choices based on the camera body and lenses that i use, i am looking at either the p25/+ which has the added feature of long exposures or the leaf aptus ll 5 db. how hard are either one to find s/h for a hasselblad v body.
Logged

Alexey

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 314
Re: p25/+ and p45/+
« Reply #22 on: April 21, 2014, 08:24:59 pm »

David... Aptus 22mp is Dalsa sensor, not Kodak... This sensor is the oldest in the Dalsa line and its look is very different to the Kodak 22mp backs. IMO, "fat pixel magic" applies only to Kodak sensor, the look of the Dalsa 22mp chip, is totally different. What one should expect by getting an Aptus 5ii, is a similar look to Aptus 7ii (look above in my previous reply), but only downgraded to all its parameters... This means: Colour is very accurate but a little less accurate than Aptus 7ii, the back is the most prone to moire one (more so than Kodak 9μm backs although pixel size is the same), low light performance is not as good as the 33mp sensor, ....Yet, the back is the most friendly with View/Tech cameras (shallow pixels again) and DR at 50 ISO is impressive, just nothing unique that the 7ii won't do equally well or better as happens with P25+ with respect to P45+.
I think old manual CF lenses will not allow 33 megapixel resolution))) the same with 39megapixel kodak sensors
« Last Edit: April 21, 2014, 08:31:46 pm by traffkin »
Logged

ErikKaffehr

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11311
    • Echophoto
Re: p25/+ and p45/+
« Reply #23 on: April 22, 2014, 01:33:07 am »

Hi,

They are good enough for 39MP at the center, may be less so in the corners. The issue may be field curvature.

Here are a bunch of raw images from the P45+/Hassy V combo (mostly). Those images may need some more sharpening. Raw images are included.

http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/index.php/photoarticles/80-my-mfd-journey-summing-up?start=5

Best regards
Erik

I think old manual CF lenses will not allow 33 megapixel resolution))) the same with 39megapixel kodak sensors
Logged
Erik Kaffehr
 

Alexey

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 314
Re: p25/+ and p45/+
« Reply #24 on: April 22, 2014, 02:21:39 am »

Hi,

http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/index.php/photoarticles/80-my-mfd-journey-summing-up?start=5


Great link!
But cfe lense are not the same as cf lenses(CF are made for film and do not have the same resolution as CFE lenses)
Logged

torger

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3267
Re: p25/+ and p45/+
« Reply #25 on: April 22, 2014, 03:21:25 am »

The old Kodak cameras, both MF and their 35mm, is pretty good at producing a saturated "slide film" look. I've partly reversed engineered some Kodak formats so I've looked at a few files. Many like this slide film look, but if you want a more neutral/realistic rendering the Dalsa based backs seem to be a better choice. With custom color profiles I'm sure it's possible to very closely emulate any look you want, but few seem to experiment with that.
Logged

amsp

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 810
Re: p25/+ and p45/+
« Reply #26 on: April 22, 2014, 03:51:52 am »

You see a lot of ridiculous claims on forums all the time, but the claim that this or that back has better colors is one of the funnier ones. I downloaded the aptus file above out of curiosity and I laughed out loud when I opened it. Take it from a pro that has been using a P25 for 8 years now, and almost every other significant DB and DSLR released along the way, you can pretty much get whatever colors you want from whatever you are using as long as you know what you are doing. Your colors will depend 99.99% on the light at the moment of capture and what you choose to do with the file in post.
Logged

esox

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 118
Re: p25/+ and p45/+
« Reply #27 on: April 22, 2014, 09:12:12 am »

I think old manual CF lenses will not allow 33 megapixel resolution))) the same with 39megapixel kodak sensors

Absolutely not, the CF or CT* lenses a great even with 60mpix. The Distagon 50mm CF Hassy is one of my favorite lenses on my Phse One system (645DF+ and P65+).
Logged

Steve Hendrix

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1662
    • http://www.captureintegration.com/
Re: p25/+ and p45/+
« Reply #28 on: April 22, 2014, 09:28:04 am »

You see a lot of ridiculous claims on forums all the time, but the claim that this or that back has better colors is one of the funnier ones. I downloaded the aptus file above out of curiosity and I laughed out loud when I opened it. Take it from a pro that has been using a P25 for 8 years now, and almost every other significant DB and DSLR released along the way, you can pretty much get whatever colors you want from whatever you are using as long as you know what you are doing. Your colors will depend 99.99% on the light at the moment of capture and what you choose to do with the file in post.


"Better" color is kind of a tricky descriptive. It depends. In the case of "better", for a landscape shooter, this may often mean more pleasing or accurate greens out of the box, and also can be highly subjective. And a gain in greens could mean a loss in reds, so tree bark, limbs, stems, terrain, etc, might be considered worse. Or vice versa. Can a digital back produce "better" color for skin than another?

I think the bigger lesson that you're introducing is; break it down - better how? And for what?

When it comes to getting whatever colors you want out of any DB, other than for reproduction, generally speaking, I'm on the same page, but not completely. "Better" color for some, could mean better color out of the box, which negates having to do as much post for color. That resonates with quite a few people. And there are differences out of the box. Different sensor manufacturers, different IR Filters, different color conversion algorithms all affect out of the box color. In most cases, these colors can be modified (either manually or via profile creation/edit), to be very equivalent, though depending on the out of the box starting point and what you're shooting  - and how objectively accurate it needs to be - this may be a more laborious process with some models than others.


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration
Logged
Steve Hendrix • 404-543-8475 www.captureintegration.com (e-mail Me)
Phase One | Leaf | Leica | Alpa | Cambo | Sinar | Arca Swiss

amsp

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 810
Re: p25/+ and p45/+
« Reply #29 on: April 22, 2014, 10:33:44 am »


"Better" color is kind of a tricky descriptive. It depends. In the case of "better", for a landscape shooter, this may often mean more pleasing or accurate greens out of the box, and also can be highly subjective. And a gain in greens could mean a loss in reds, so tree bark, limbs, stems, terrain, etc, might be considered worse. Or vice versa. Can a digital back produce "better" color for skin than another?

I think the bigger lesson that you're introducing is; break it down - better how? And for what?

When it comes to getting whatever colors you want out of any DB, other than for reproduction, generally speaking, I'm on the same page, but not completely. "Better" color for some, could mean better color out of the box, which negates having to do as much post for color. That resonates with quite a few people. And there are differences out of the box. Different sensor manufacturers, different IR Filters, different color conversion algorithms all affect out of the box color. In most cases, these colors can be modified (either manually or via profile creation/edit), to be very equivalent, though depending on the out of the box starting point and what you're shooting  - and how objectively accurate it needs to be - this may be a more laborious process with some models than others.


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration


The "out of box" thing is completely arbitrary and pointless though, just a result of the hardware calibration in combination with your choice of software and profile. Don't like what you see? Just make a different profile, colors are not set in stone when you shoot digital. Also, if you shoot RAW and don't do any editing to your files you are doing something seriously wrong. RAW files are not designed to look good straight from camera, but rather contain the maximum information for you to use in your editing. You'll have to create your own preferred looks, much like choosing different films for different looks back in the day. When I first started using the P25 eight years ago, the default profiles were pretty bad, especially for skintones (this has changed dramatically over the many generations of Capture One), so I just did my own profiling and never had an issue getting what I wanted. Same goes for every other camera I've used.

For example, there's this long running myth on forums like this one that Leaf has better skintones than Phase. My entire career has been shooting mostly fashion and editorial portraits, using pretty much all the backs at some point, and I can categorically dismiss this notion. In fact, try looking at some behind the scenes footage from major fashion shoots by the very top of the top photographers in this field and you'll see that 9/10 times it's usually a Phase One back they're using, and this in a field where skintones are pretty much the number one priority when editing.

Again, I've been doing this professionally for a pretty long time now and I stand by the statement that 99.99% of your colors will depend on the light when you took the photo and your choices in post.

« Last Edit: April 22, 2014, 10:43:31 am by amsp »
Logged

Theodoros

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2454
Re: p25/+ and p45/+
« Reply #30 on: April 22, 2014, 11:47:36 am »

The "out of box" thing is completely arbitrary and pointless though, just a result of the hardware calibration in combination with your choice of software and profile. Don't like what you see? Just make a different profile, colors are not set in stone when you shoot digital. Also, if you shoot RAW and don't do any editing to your files you are doing something seriously wrong. RAW files are not designed to look good straight from camera, but rather contain the maximum information for you to use in your editing. You'll have to create your own preferred looks, much like choosing different films for different looks back in the day. When I first started using the P25 eight years ago, the default profiles were pretty bad, especially for skintones (this has changed dramatically over the many generations of Capture One), so I just did my own profiling and never had an issue getting what I wanted. Same goes for every other camera I've used.

For example, there's this long running myth on forums like this one that Leaf has better skintones than Phase. My entire career has been shooting mostly fashion and editorial portraits, using pretty much all the backs at some point, and I can categorically dismiss this notion. In fact, try looking at some behind the scenes footage from major fashion shoots by the very top of the top photographers in this field and you'll see that 9/10 times it's usually a Phase One back they're using, and this in a field where skintones are pretty much the number one priority when editing.

Again, I've been doing this professionally for a pretty long time now and I stand by the statement that 99.99% of your colors will depend on the light when you took the photo and your choices in post.



Oh come on! You aren't the only pro around... Accurate "Out of the box" is particularly important when it comes to skin tones... especially if one has to deal with group of people with different skin (e.g. pale caucasian with sun burned male caucasian and african at the same shot...). "Pleasing" colours may be personal, but "accurate" colours is much more subjective... I do painting reproduction via a 16x mfdb in "true colour" on daily basis... for colour accuracy in single shot nothing compares to Dalsa ....and among Dalsa, 33mp is the better of the best.  ;) However, I love the "fat pixel magic" of Kodak 22mp backs and although it's not as accurate as Dalsa 33mp sensors, that is what is my preference most of the time... Yet, there others that prefer the superb skin tones of the Dalsa 33mp sensor.... who is to blame them for that or falsely claim in public that they may achieve the same accuracy using a punchier sensor, with larger linear part and more colour saturation which favours a "colder" presentation as Kodak 22mp sensors do?
 
"More pleasing"... that I can accept... but "the same accurate"? ...no way! The Kodak 22mp sensors are legendary for their "fat pixel magic" and they worth it for that "magic" which is present and real!  The Dalsa 33mp sensors OTOH, are legendary for their accuracy ...and their legend worths every bit of it! ...it's a matter of preference, can't you see? ....it's not some kind of battle!
Logged

ErikKaffehr

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11311
    • Echophoto
Re: p25/+ and p45/+
« Reply #31 on: April 23, 2014, 04:16:26 pm »

Hi,

Some CFE lenses are new designs, like the 40/4 FLE IF. Another lens that stands out is the Planar 100/3.5, but I don't think it is a new design.

Here is a page with Zeiss data sheets for almost all lenses: http://www.hasselbladhistorical.eu/HW/HWLds.aspx

You can see that MTF data are essentially identical between CF and CFi/CFE series.

But there may be differences that doesn't show in MTF plots, like better control of ghots/flare.

I have upgraded some of my lenses to CFE/CFi, but I have no clear idea of possible improvements.

Best regards
Erik


Great link!
But cfe lense are not the same as cf lenses(CF are made for film and do not have the same resolution as CFE lenses)
Logged
Erik Kaffehr
 
Pages: 1 [2]   Go Up