p25/+ and p45/+

[david distefano]

i will be investigating for myself within the next 6 weeks but i want a general feeling for those who have used both the p25 and p45 on a hasselblad v system camera and the hasselblad lenses (i have the 50mm,80mm,120mm,180mm all cf) for the v system. with a max print size of 20x24 and maybe 24x30 using an epson 7880 and at 240dpi,what have you seen in the final print that would be the biggest difference between the 2 backs.

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi,

I have only experience with P45+. I have 40/4 CF FLE, 50/4 CF FLE, 80 CFE, 120/4 CF and 180/4 CFE. Did also have a Sonnar 150/5 CF.

The Sonnars work well, with no reservations. The other lenses are a bit weak in borders/corner. Field curvature may be the culprit.

Best regards
Erik

i will be investigating for myself within the next 6 weeks but i want a general feeling for those who have used both the p25 and p45 on a hasselblad v system camera and the hasselblad lenses (i have the 50mm,80mm,120mm,180mm all cf) for the v system. with a max print size of 20x24 and maybe 24x30 using an epson 7880 and at 240dpi,what have you seen in the final print that would be the biggest difference between the 2 backs.

[henrikfoto]

Hi David!

I have used both on the V-system. I think you will be more happy with the P25+.
It is more easy to focus good and much less prone to flare from vibrations.

Also many of the V-lenses look sharper with the P25+.

I would never put in the extra money for the P45+.

Henrik

[david distefano]

Hi David!

I have used both on the V-system. I think you will be more happy with the P25+.
It is more easy to focus good and much less prone to flare from vibrations.

Also many of the V-lenses look sharper with the P25+.

I would never put in the extra money for the P45+.

Henrik

i had the cfv-16 with the same 9 micron pixel and the images looked really good

[Alexey]

The cfv16 has fantastic colors, but P25 not. Prepare to be disappointed in P25/45 colors after CFV16

[Doug Peterson]

The cfv16 has fantastic colors, but P25 not. Prepare to be disappointed in P25/45 colors after CFV16

Do you have experience with the P25 or P25+? They did not have identical color.

In what raw processing software was this experience? LR? C1v3? C1v7?

[Alexey]

Do you have experience with the P25 or P25+? They did not have identical color.

In what raw processing software was this experience? LR? C1v3? C1v7?

I had only p25+ It has a better screen than in P25

IMHO both have identical color (the same kodak sensor)

May be you have to buy a dalsa sensor 22mp digital back?
http://www.mamiyaleaf.com/samples_aptus-II_5.html or older )))

[torger]

The CFV16 has same type of sensor too, just a crop, but Hasselblad's and Phase One's processning software and color profiling is different so they will yield a different end result (slight hardware differences too that affect color, but the raw software pipeline has the strongest effect). What's better will be a matter of taste. There's no universal truth that CFV16 has great colors and P25+ not. I've heard many good things about P25+ color too.

One advantage with using a P45+ than a P25+ even if you don't need the resolution is that you get less aliasing. The 9um pixel sensors can really be aliasing/moire machines at larger aperture. If you shoot landscape it's okay, but fabrics can be a nightmare. Aliasing can get pretty bad with a P45+ too, but you'll experience practical problems much less often than with the P25+. I'm basing this on what other users have reported, and my own experience with a 9um vs 7.2um back.

[Alexey]

The CFV16 has same type of sensor too, just a crop, but Hasselblad's and Phase One's processning software and color profiling is different so they will yield a different end result (slight hardware differences too that affect color, but the raw software pipeline has the strongest effect). What's better will be a matter of taste. There's no universal truth that CFV16 has great colors and P25+ not. I've heard many good things about P25+ color too.

The same type of sensor? Do you mean that they are both CCD?))) The CFV16 has a square sensor the same as the "kodak pro back" and "phase one p20". But p21 and p25 have really the same sensor, but p21 is cropped by software.

[torger]

The same type of sensor? Do you mean that they are both CCD?))) The CFV16 has a square sensor the same as the "kodak pro back" and "phase one p20". But p21 and p25 have really the same sensor, but p21 is cropped by software.

Both have Kodak 9um sensor technology. KAF-16000 (37x37mm) and KAF-22000 (37x49mm) were manufactured in the same way. There might have been some differences in CFA design though, don't know.

[Alexey]

Both have Kodak 9um sensor technology. KAF-16000 (37x37mm) and KAF-22000 (37x49mm) were manufactured in the same way. There might have been some differences in CFA design though, don't know.

these two sensors have the same technology but completly different in color reproduction.  These sqare sensors are fantastic (I have all of them) The 22mp sensor  is just a sensor no color magic (((

[torger]

these two sensors have the same technology but completly different in color reproduction.  These sqare sensors are fantastic (I have all of them) The 22mp sensor  is just a sensor no color magic (((

Ok. It's perfectly possible as there's a lot of software involved as said. I'm a bit surprised as it's the first time I hear that one's great and the other's crap

Raw files should be quite easy to come by, so I suggest the David look at some files before buy. There's of course also the Leaf Dalsa alternatives, the Aptus-22 and Aptus-75 and their Aptus-II versions, could be an  interesting alternative, and almost certainly cheaper.

[Alexey]

All medium format photographers in Russia prey on Kodak Pro back 645))) It's our native DB))) like Vodka

[Theodoros]

P25+ & P45+ look very similar indeed... There are advantages and disadvantages with respect to each other but only small ones. I've tried them both on Contax 645 and on Hasselblad H2 but not on V... The (small) advantages of 45+ are:
1. It's less prone to moire... yet, you'll find that the latest version of C1 treating the issue on P25+ to an extend that one doesn't have to worry much about it anymore.
2. It has a little more (obviously) detail... but no where near what one would expect from the resolution difference in specs.
3. It's less noisy in very long exposures (more than 20 mins)... yet, P25+ is considered among the best around for the same job.
Otoh, P25+'s advantages are:
1. A little more DR after processing the files
2. It's "easier" on lenses, but as a consequence it is better when used with View/Tech cameras...
3. It's among the "best" representatives of what some people call "the fat pixel magic" (although P45+ tries hard to achieve the same look and manages to come close but not just there). Now this is difficult to explain, but it means that there is a unique "look" to the prints, ....a combination of DR, colour saturation in HLs and LLs and contrast in the mid tones, that some prefer to even modern high resolution backs.

As for large prints, if one knows how to "treat" a file well for printing, there shouldn't be an issue with either of them at much larger than what you state as required. Personally, I would go for P25+ for the "+" models... but for the P45 if it was for the older models. Actually, if I was out for a single-shot back in the 20-40mp region, I would include the Dalsa chip 33mp backs also in my consideration and perhaps rate them higher than the Kodak 39mp ones... It would either be Kodak 22mp (but not P25 "plain") or Dalsa 33mp IMO...

P.S. In contradiction to what was mentioned earlier, the IQ of P25+ is not the same as of the P25 "plain"...

[david distefano]

how would a s/h leaf aptus ll either a 5,6,7 figure into the mix when compared with a p25/+.

[henrikfoto]

The cfv16 has fantastic colors, but P25 not. Prepare to be disappointed in P25/45 colors after CFV16

What?

[Theodoros]

how would a s/h leaf aptus ll either a 5,6,7 figure into the mix when compared with a p25/+.

22/54/5 & 6 were never mentioned, 75/75S/7/7ii & Sinarback 75 (the Dalsa 33mp backs) have more colour accuracy than P25+, are more moire resistant and are even easier with View/Tech cameras (although pixels are smaller) because pixel depth is shallower... they are also among the best backs around for DR and are very "quite" at 400 Iso holding their DR and colour accuracy well... The look is different to the "fat pixel magic" look, but this is a matter of personal choice... "bite" can be superb on both depending on file processing, but for faithful colour accuracy, Dalsa 33mp beats even other ...(more modern) Dalsa!

[david distefano]

i see that b&h sell a new leaf aptus ll 22 (fat pixel) for $7990 and the smaller sensor size leaf aptus ll 40 for $8500. how are these backs compared to the p25/+ from those who have used both. do our 2 main dealers also have these new at better prices or s/h and very good discounts.

[Alexey]

i see that b&h sell a new leaf aptus ll 22 (fat pixel) for $7990 and the smaller sensor size leaf aptus ll 40 for $8500. how are these backs compared to the p25/+ from those who have used both. do our 2 main dealers also have these new at better prices or s/h and very good discounts.

Buy this leaf aptus ll 22 and I think you will not regret. As far as i understand it has the same dalsa 22mp sensor as the mamiya ZD
ZD is quite good! Also you will be able to check focus and on p45/25 focus checking is allmost impossible

ZDback

[Theodoros]

i see that b&h sell a new leaf aptus ll 22 (fat pixel) for $7990 and the smaller sensor size leaf aptus ll 40 for $8500. how are these backs compared to the p25/+ from those who have used both. do our 2 main dealers also have these new at better prices or s/h and very good discounts.

David... Aptus 22mp is Dalsa sensor, not Kodak... This sensor is the oldest in the Dalsa line and its look is very different to the Kodak 22mp backs. IMO, "fat pixel magic" applies only to Kodak sensor, the look of the Dalsa 22mp chip, is totally different. What one should expect by getting an Aptus 5ii, is a similar look to Aptus 7ii (look above in my previous reply), but only downgraded to all its parameters... This means: Colour is very accurate but a little less accurate than Aptus 7ii, the back is the most prone to moire one (more so than Kodak 9μm backs although pixel size is the same), low light performance is not as good as the 33mp sensor, ....Yet, the back is the most friendly with View/Tech cameras (shallow pixels again) and DR at 50 ISO is impressive, just nothing unique that the 7ii won't do equally well or better as happens with P25+ with respect to P45+.