Color management with Bay Photo

[digitaldog]

I think you are far too concerned with making sure everyone knows you're right rather than trying to present your arguments in a way we can understand.
The statements I made came with a disclaimer that pretty much said "I know nothing, simply repeating what I was taught from industry experts".  So am I wrong?  I never claimed to be right about anything.  I am not concerned about right or wrong.  I am concerned about learning and understanding.  Something that you are not doing a very good job at.

Suppose there was a forum dedicated to lab owners. I come along and write:

Metal prints contain lead which can harm people and the sublimation process continues to emit gas that people can breath. I'm not an expert but it is impossible not to be affected by this condition of metal prints.
Then suppose you or someone that actually knows about the process stated:

You are wrong. Further here's proof that what you wrote isn't correct. (Then you provided some illustration that the statement was incorrect).
Further, what if the facts showed that indeed, what I wrote was incorrect?

Then I wote "I'm not wrong and you're attacking me"? And all that stuff above about me having to be right, or how I present the argument. There's nothing to argue about in terms of the process profiling my customer's metal print process, it worked. That said, YMMV. But what is clear to me and my customer is this: It isn't impossible to profile the metal print/sublimation process and the soft proof doesn't look like crap (your words).

That's where we're at here. Yes, you did write you may not have the facts straight and basic understanding correct, I'm agreeing with you. Your facts are not correct, at least for all metal print processes. Again I'm sorry if being shown the error based on an actual metal profile and soft proof dismiss what you wrote about them. Or the process in which one builds such a profile; we measure the final product, not the intermediately product that you say looked poor. The facts are this: a lab asked for a custom profile for their metal process. I have no idea how that process may differ from yours, what RIP is used (which isn't pertinent) but do know I was able to measure the actual metal output, the soft proof looks fine as shown here and the lab was extremely happy with the results. I'm actually more concerned with you examining that possibility than me being correct. At least in the experience I have with this process and the output and profile that resulted, it may be impossible for you, it wasn’t impossible for me or my client. Again, YMMV.

I'm not sure how else to better explain this process. Output a target with patches onto the final metal process. Have someone measure that and build a profile. Use the profile in Photoshop or elsewhere. Examine the soft proof as shown here.

From there, one can get very exacting information about how much and where in color space the process may deviate over time. By measuring the same target again and comparing it to the reference or what is called a color aim. That would be the predicted values of the original profile. This is not ambiguous in reporting the differences like saying: It is IMPOSSIBLE for any metal printing lab to get as accurate prints as printing directly onto high quality paper because 1 degree difference, 1 second longer pressing time everything makes the colors different. Most of this goes un-noticed to the human eye. We have the tools and the color science to do this analysis. Just as we have the tools to profile this process. IOW, I could tell you exactly where in color space 1 degree difference results in the output. Or if a new batch of metal or sublimation 'paper' deviates from the last. None of this is impossible unless you can answer Peter's question: I don't understand why ICC profiles are impossible for metal printing.

IF you really want to get to the bottom of this inability of yours to profile your process, I'd be happy to measure a small patch target and build a quick and dirty profile for you to test. The profile I built for the other customer using 1700+2500 patches is far more work than I'm willing to do as a simple proof of concept test but I'd do something that can be measured in a few minutes of my time that would take less work on my part than trying to prove it's possible with further writings here. Your call.

[Some Guy]

When I visited the place (Old 110,000 sq./ft. Seagate Hard Drive building in Scotts Valley north of Santa Cruz) the girl said they liked to work off sRGB profiled images.  They use the ROES software too which might be suited to that.  I had a huge TIFF file and had to convert it down for the ROES software too, but enough so that I could get a metal plate 16x20 off it.  They have some very large, maybe 5x9 foot, metals on the lobby walls.

I do note some issues of the yellows with very fair skin with the metal plate (Chromalux?) transfer.  Didn't ask about their ink choice and color amounts as they seem very hushed about the way they do it.

Overall I'm satisfied with their work and for the cost of the metal plate and frame they do, it isn't bad considering a custom framer alone, aside from the plate, would be far more expensive by a factor of maybe five.

I did add a layer to two of "Renaissance Wax" to the plate that seems to help with people touching the surface for whatever reasons.  Sort of slow process using it though, and not at all suited to some inkjet papers alone either (Dark smudges and difficult to remove!).

SG

[Jim Kasson]

As is the nature in gang-run printing. Gang-run process doesn't really apply to what the OP is requesting.  You may have followed all the rules and submitted a perfect file using their provided icc, but the rest of the imposition artwork may be ink heavy on press. Will they keep the 1 perfect piece of 50 in-spec for the whole run while the rest of the impo prints like crap? Or would the pressman pull back and normalize for the majority? 50 customers with 50 different ways the artwork was built. True, they provided the profile and educated. Some use it others don't and your artwork is in the mix with them. A perfect color managed workflow still needs on-the-fly adjustments due to variances in press conditions.

So here we have a company with a hard time staying consistently close to the process aim point because of the vicissitudes of web offset printing offering ICC profiles of their presses and, I believe, having mostly satisfied customers. The metal print process does not have any color dependencies associated with whatever images might be next to others when they're RIP'ed, AFAIK. So it should be easier to offer ICC profiles to the customer if the process itself is tightly under control.

One possible downside of offering a color managed process to your customers might be that some of them might measure the print they get back with a spectrophotometer and compute DeltaEs. If you're submitting sRGB files, you won't know if a color is off because the process is drifting or it's just out of gamut.

Jim

[digitaldog]

One possible downside of offering a color managed process to your customers might be that some of them might measure the print they get back with a spectrophotometer and compute DeltaEs. If you're submitting sRGB files, you won't know if a color is off because the process is drifting or it's just out of gamut.

Depends on the target you send for the analysis. One could produce a target for this that falls totally within sRGB. Then if you see high dE values, and we should define what we feel is high, it's a problem with process control.

When I create special targets for trending process control, I build them with smaller patch samples than what I'd use for building a profile to speed up the measuring process and further, depending on the device, I target the gamut so there are no OOG colors. Easy to do with say ColorPort. With a profile target, we don't know (yet) it's gamut so the patches are designed to be father out gamut wise and of course there are a lot more patches needed to build a good profile. For process control, depending on the type of device (ink jet versus digital press), one could build a target with 500 patches or far less, 200 or so. Plenty to gauge process control issues. Pad that with more grays or 'customer logo colors' etc.

Any lab could (and should) do this too! If they are serious about process control. The people who make ColorThink have an awesome web based product for process control called Maxwell. Hook up an iSis, build what is called a track for a device. Once a day, 3 times a day, whatever you feel is necessary, you send a target through the insturment, it is uploaded to Maxwell and it builds a very complete report much like you see in ColorThink. You can tell it to send you an email if say the max dE is over 5. Stop the presses or device, fix the issue, run another test through Maxwell. But again, one has to be really serious about producing the best and consistent output to go that route. Some do thankfully.

[digitaldog]

Customers can get hold of profiles for all the papers I use by emailing me, they can use the profiles for soft-proofing on their own machines but I'm asking them to send me the files in sRGB, Adobe RGB or ProPhoto RGB along with instructions which rendering intent to use when I print their files.

Why can't they use the RI they prefer based on the image and send the output color space to you?

[Jim Kasson]

All depends on the print lab/studio. Customers can get hold of profiles for all the papers I use by emailing me, they can use the profiles for soft-proofing on their own machines but I'm asking them to send me the files in sRGB, Adobe RGB or ProPhoto RGB along with instructions which rendering intent to use when I print their files.

Well, at least you allow them to use color spaces that probably encompass the gamut of your printer, not just sRGB. If they use the same rendering intent for their soft proofing with your device profile, and if the color processing engine in their software is the same as the one in yours, the printer should get the same colors when you perform the conversion to printer color space as it would had the customer done the conversion. Depending on the color engine being the same is an opportunity for error, though. I'm not sure what the advantage of your approach is. Maybe you change your printing profile as your device drifts rather than correcting some other way?

Jim

[digitaldog]

This is my approach and to be honest I prefer this instead of embedding specific paper profiles to images, for two reasons:

That's legitimate in those cases. But should someone want to send you the data in the output space, you could do that right? As long as the custom instructions were: send numbers to your device as is, that's doable.

[Benny Profane]

Wow, amazing. So many making something so complicated. Buy your own printer, for crying out loud. But, then again, you can be one of the "hundreds" of photographers the dog has written profiles for. I guess. Yeah, that will work.

WalMart? Somebody went to WalMart and asked them to toy with software? Stunning.

[Rand47]

For what it's worth, the metal print lab I use had no problem providing their in-house created ICC profile.  This has made a significant difference in the prints they produce for me (and for my clients, for whom I prep files for printing).  All it took was a simple polite, informed, conversation with the owner.

Rand

[digitaldog]

Wow, amazing. So many making something so complicated. Buy your own printer, for crying out loud.

And the expensive equipment to make the sublimation transfers.

But, then again, you can be one of the "hundreds" of photographers the dog has written profiles for. I guess. Yeah, that will work.

It works quite well. Hundreds of satisfied customers. Thanks for that!

[Benny Profane]

And the expensive equipment to make the sublimation transfers. 

If only everyone had such a desire to blah blah blah to amateurs. Then you'd have competition.

"Sublimation transfers". Really. You wouldn't last a week in a real print shop.

[digitaldog]

If only everyone had such a desire to blah blah blah to amateurs. Then you'd have competition.

Amateurs like you who don't understand what a sublimation transfer (or what sublimation) is? If that's true, I'd have no worries Dr. Profane.
And are you not the silly fellow from Retouch Pro* who didn't know what a contract proof was? You work in a real print shop!
*http://www.retouchpro.com/forums/input-output-workflow/37200-certified-contract-proofing-budget.html

[Benny Profane]

I was referring to the term. "Sublimation Transfer". It would elicit giggles and smirks among the pros.

And, yep, that's me, the one and only. Good luck with your consulting.

[digitaldog]

I was referring to the term. "Sublimation Transfer". It would elicit giggles and smirks among the pros.

Much like the giggles I emitted when you wrote (after starting you're such a big shot in prepress):

01-12-2014, 08:51 PM
A basic question before this goes any further. What is this "contract proof*"? Who is the "contract" between? What parties? What is the responsibility, and to whom? How does that work?

The bit about spending 8 long years as a photo assistant was good for a few smirks too. The one and only certainly!
Now, do you have anything to add to the post or you're just here to be annoying?

* (answers):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prepress_proofing
http://www.swop.org/certification/systemlist.asp
http://desktoppub.about.com/cs/proof...tractproof.htm
http://www.fogra.org/en/fogra-fograc...-creation.html

[digitaldog]

WalMart? Somebody went to WalMart and asked them to toy with software? Stunning.

What's stunning is you have no idea who you're sparing with (again). The fellow who mentioned Walmart has far more creditably in terms of printing, color science and an understanding of this topic than you do and if you had a brain in your head, before steping into this forum with senseless posts, you'd check out who you're dealing with: http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com
Don't you have some lunch to deliver to a photographer or a proof to deliver to a real life retoucher?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dye-sublimation_printer
A dye-sublimation printer (or dye-sub printer) is a computer printer which employs a printing process that uses heat to transfer dye onto materials such as a plastic, card, paper, or fabric.
As dye-sublimation printers utilise heat to transfer the dye onto the print media, the printing speed is limited by the speed at which the elements on the thermal head can change temperature.
http://www.skmfgprintshop.com/dst.html
We Specialize in Dye Sublimation Transfers.

[Benny Profane]

Do they have one of those at WalMart?

I know what the damn thing is. sheesh. You sure can type. Consulting biz a little slow?

[MHMG]

Do they have one of those at WalMart?

Maybe not for printing on metal, but your local big box stores like Walmart often run complete photo finishing systems provided by Fujifilm, HP, etc., and these systems are engineered to have very reliable linearization and process control that is performed by employees with a minimal amount of training. I have never really seen the point in doing 4x6 photos or greeting cards on a home printer since it quickly gets very time consuming and is usually not cost effective.  Hence, my interest in color managed workflows for higher volume printing equipment I have access to at my local Walmart, Staples, etc.

So, if an advanced amateur or pro photographer obtains a profile for said systems, your local big box store can be a great place for fully color managed low cost photo finishing. Call me crazy, but much of the discussion here has revolved around getting more personally involved with one's print provider to ensure better quality than often what happens when the personal contact is missing. High end labs do charge for higher levels of customer care as well they should. Nevertheless, on a more modest scale this approach can be taken with any lab manager who is open to giving customers a little personal assistance.  You never know. He or she might be on the evening shift at your local Walmart, Staples, etc.



cheers,
mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com

[Benny Profane]

 You never know. He or she might be on the evening shift at your local Walmart, Staples, etc.

And then they'll be sleeping in their car in the next county within a month. Sorry, but, WalMart is not exactly a place I would expect decent service for printing. Hell, I go there for perverse entertainment at times, just to watch the freak show. It's especially interesting on Saturday night, late.

I'll do my own prints and buy bulk cleaning supplies there, thank you. If they even have it on the shelves, that is.

[MHMG]

And then they'll be sleeping in their car in the next county within a month. Sorry, but, WalMart is not exactly a place I would expect decent service for printing. Hell, I go there for perverse entertainment at times, just to watch the freak show. It's especially interesting on Saturday night, late.

I'll do my own prints and buy bulk cleaning supplies there, thank you. If they even have it on the shelves, that is.

That was your take away conclusion from my last post? One needs to put all the posts in this thread within the context of working with print providers at different levels of expertise, both on their part and on the part of the customer. I merely attempted to point out that even the most basic photo finishing providers (like Walmart) who offer low cost automated volume printing and don't normally paint outside the lines too much will sometimes step up their game if asked politely. For the OP, it may just be a simple phone call to Bay Photo. For others, some skills in diplomacy may need to be acquired first

good luck,
mark

[digitaldog]

That was your take away conclusion from my last post?

You have to put "Benny Profane" (a made up alias) into the right context. Just examine his first, middle and last posts here. He's not here to aid the OP or anyone else. Like his post on RetouchPro, dismissing the idea of a contract proof only to ask "what's a contract proof." Then when that is explained to him, and despite a number of links that also illustrate the term, he goes on about how much he knows about prepress and dismisses them. This guy is as dumb as a bag of hammers and not nearly as charming.