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Author Topic: New Leica T-Type 701  (Read 30532 times)

BernardLanguillier

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Re: New Leica T-Type 701
« Reply #80 on: May 06, 2014, 01:47:38 AM »

You are missing the point. Probably intentionally.
Roy

Roy,

I am very happy about the 2 Leica R APO lenses I have converted to F mount, that's the extend of my relationship with Leica and I don't see why I would invest more in the brand based on their current line up and pricing strategy. This being said, my first hand experience tends to confirm their overall claims of optical excellence.

So I think you are just reading too much in what can only reasonnably be assumed to have been a misunderstanding. You seem to see Leica a certain way and are just interpreting doubtful information in such a way that it fits in your pre-defined model.

IMHO.

Cheers,
Bernard
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A few images online here!

Paulo Bizarro

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Re: New Leica T-Type 701
« Reply #81 on: May 06, 2014, 04:35:15 AM »

Just read this on DPreview and could help thinking "why on earth did they waste time publishing this crap".

Frankly, who cares whether they use software based distorsion correction or not? DxO has proven for years that it can be done without much visible image quality drop. Releasing an optical design with less focus on distorsion correction makes it possible to optimize other important parameters, so you end up with better image quality.

We buy systems, not lenses, especially in the case of totally closed solutions such as the Leica T.

Cheers,
Bernard

The problem I have, if indeed DPR claims are true, is that Leica lied, plain and simple. And this is serious, especially given their prices and claims that the lenses are corrected optically, not requiring software to do so.

What I suspect is that only the zoom is software corrected, prime lenses should not require software correction, or if so, only a minimal amount.

I am fine with software correction (which for example I use to correct some distortion and CA from my Zeiss 21 ZE), what I criticize are false claims.

bcooter

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Re: New Leica T-Type 701
« Reply #82 on: May 06, 2014, 06:41:35 AM »

Some things I don't get.

For 7 years I've been using Contax/Zeiss lenses on my contax 645 with an aptus 22, Leaf Valeo, Phase -30+, and P21+.

Now I use them with the Leica Convertor on the S2.

I've rarely see any need for correction in post, except for the rare CA when shooting wide open in bright back light.

The Zeiss are always brutally sharp, actually a little too sharp though sharper than the Leica 120 I own, though the leica (to me) has a prettier character.

Now the flip side of this is my 43 lenses and cameras.   I have a bag full of Olympus m43 primes I use on the em-1, em-5 and gh3's.

On the Olympus and panasonic they are sharp, crazy sharp, but they seem to lack some character and I'm sure there are a lot of behind the scenes correction going on in the camera, or the lens/camera or the lens/camera/software.

The reason I think this is when I mount Leica M mount lenses on the m43 cameras, the leica lenses display softness, severe ca but used on an m8 they are fine.

Also Interesting is the Pansonic lenses aren't quite as sharp, especially the zooms but have much nicer roll off and character to them the the Zeiss/Pansonic lenses continue with this look, though don't have that extreme bite of sharpness of the Contax lenses.

Not that it matters, other than in the final look, but using the contax lenses, some older film lenses like Nikors I'm amazed that they need very little post correction and hold up extremely well, considering they are 10, 12 who knows how old designs.

I personally think the less digital correction needed the better the lens, though in all honesty, the prettiest lens I've ever used, film or digital is the old boris Hartblei tilt shift in a contax mount.

It's not really crazy sharp, surely not pixel peeping sharp, but has the most beautiful roll off of any lenses I've used.




IMO

BC


P.S.   I doubt seriously if Leica would out and out lie about using digital corrections if they didn't.  Maybe I'm naive, but to me that would open up a very not nice door that would be hard to shut and Leica has too much brand equity to lose.

Manoli

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Re: New Leica T-Type 701
« Reply #83 on: May 06, 2014, 08:29:10 AM »

The problem I have, if indeed DPR claims are true, is that Leica lied, plain and simple. And this is serious ...

This is bringing innuendo and conspiracy theories to farcical levels.  You've got no named source, no citation, no link, no spec sheet - just an allegation, so far unsubstantiated. It's worthy of gossip rags.

At launch, the reviewers all had pre-release models to base their initial reports on. Their was, as it turned out, some MISINFORMATION, not lies, nor duplicity nor conspiracy. It wasn't just software correction - there was also doubt about whether or not the T had an AA filter - some were told yes, others no. It was clarified - the answer is no. Likewise for software correction (on M lenses). The T lenses do have software correction.

Software correction is not only for distortion, but also luminance vignetting and colour drift. I imagine it would be a time consuming and laborious job to correct the whole backlog of M lenses for the new aps-c sensor. Certainly difficult in time for the initial release but something they could add at a later date via firmware - if they so wish. Leica seem to be keen to differentiate amongst their products. Sinar - S - M - X and T. Now the M's have built-in correction already, the T is aimed at a different market - why would they ?

http://j.mp/1c7dRuR#sthash.aSeDbv8f.dpuf

« Last Edit: May 06, 2014, 09:00:28 AM by Manoli »
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Manoli

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Re: New Leica T-Type 701
« Reply #84 on: May 06, 2014, 08:39:14 AM »

Far more revealing is that still no-one I know can or rather won't say what the sensor in the new T is. Bernard may well be right when he surmises that it's a Sony, but then why the secrecy ...
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MrSmith

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Re: New Leica T-Type 701
« Reply #85 on: May 06, 2014, 08:50:25 AM »

Bernard may well be right when he surmises that it's a Sony, but then why the secrecy ...

the exclusivity and myth go out the window, pride of ownership and plaudits from your peers are non-existent once the world knows your veblen goods are not what you once believed in.  :'(
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Telecaster

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Re: New Leica T-Type 701
« Reply #86 on: May 06, 2014, 05:16:06 PM »

I have the lens correction stuff turned off on my M8s. I've seen no need for it with any of my lenses other than the Voigtländer 15mm, which is uncoded anyway and whose files can be easily adjusted (frame-edge magenta color cast) in post.

The Oly & Panasonic m43 cameras do correct (JPEGs) for barrel/pincushion distortion and also chromatic aberrations. It's interesting to convert the same RAW file in, say, Lightroom and then in a processor that applies no such corrections, like PhotoRaw on my iPad. Some of the m43 lenses exhibit significant barrel distortion, no doubt allowed as a means of simplifying design & reducing cost. It's also clear the corrections have minimal to no impact on spatial or tonal detail, so I'd say the strategy is a good one.

The interesting thing to me about using M lenses on various cameras is how variable their performance is. Take the Zeiss ZM 21/2.8, a Biogon design. More or less symmetrical. It's utterly mediocre on m43, a bit better on APS-C (Epson R-D1, Fuji X-E1), then suddenly great—uncorrected, mind you—on the M8, then very good (with correction) on an M9, then utter crap on Sony's A7r. The A7r performance is understood...but the m43 performance seems puzzling. I doubt it has anything to do with behind-the-scenes processing since other non-Olympus/Panasonic lenses, like the Voigtländer f/0.95s, perform wonderfully.

I'll be interested to read about how M lenses perform on the T.

-Dave-
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Paulo Bizarro

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Re: New Leica T-Type 701
« Reply #87 on: May 07, 2014, 04:12:59 AM »

This is bringing innuendo and conspiracy theories to farcical levels.  You've got no named source, no citation, no link, no spec sheet - just an allegation, so far unsubstantiated. It's worthy of gossip rags.

At launch, the reviewers all had pre-release models to base their initial reports on. Their was, as it turned out, some MISINFORMATION, not lies, nor duplicity nor conspiracy. It wasn't just software correction - there was also doubt about whether or not the T had an AA filter - some were told yes, others no. It was clarified - the answer is no. Likewise for software correction (on M lenses). The T lenses do have software correction.

Software correction is not only for distortion, but also luminance vignetting and colour drift. I imagine it would be a time consuming and laborious job to correct the whole backlog of M lenses for the new aps-c sensor. Certainly difficult in time for the initial release but something they could add at a later date via firmware - if they so wish. Leica seem to be keen to differentiate amongst their products. Sinar - S - M - X and T. Now the M's have built-in correction already, the T is aimed at a different market - why would they ?

http://j.mp/1c7dRuR#sthash.aSeDbv8f.dpuf



Farcical? Perhaps, but the fact remains that as of today, there has been no official communication from Leica to clarify whether or not the T lenses have software correction of optical defects. The fact remains that during a presentation/interview a Leica representative said that the T lenses use only optical correction. This is not true.

So yes, Leica have not lied, but a Leica representative was one of the following: ignorant about the product; overenthusiastic; full of BS.

I was not discussing the filter, and I have no problem with software correction, just with false allegations and claims.

Relax, I am sure the T is a great camera, I would buy one with the 35mm equivalent lens if I had the money. As it is, I make do with the also excellent Fuji X100...

Telecaster

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Re: New Leica T-Type 701
« Reply #88 on: May 07, 2014, 03:53:33 PM »

The fact remains that during a presentation/interview a Leica representative said that the T lenses use only optical correction. This is not true.

The fact remains? The possibility exists, yes, but who has established this as fact? All I've read are claims & statements, along with varying degrees of self-righteous indignation.

Anyway, per my earlier post on the subject, I suspect the fuss is less about this particular product and more about a distaste for Leica's marketing & pricing strategy. A distaste those objecting to the strategy are mostly unwilling to directly express.

-Dave-
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mezzoduomo

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Re: New Leica T-Type 701
« Reply #89 on: May 07, 2014, 09:08:17 PM »

Good God, this is all so pointless...all of it, on this forum and elsewhere. Buy it, or don't. Everyone has an a**hole and an opinion, and its all so silly. If you think Dr. Kaufmann gives a rat's derriere, you're wrong. He's too busy counting his money.  ::)
« Last Edit: May 07, 2014, 09:24:04 PM by mezzoduomo »
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MrSmith

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Re: New Leica T-Type 701
« Reply #90 on: May 08, 2014, 02:18:22 AM »

At least the 'image quality professor' sits there in his white coat and looks busy.
Maybe he (Leica MD) should stop counting his money, buff some aluminium then sign the camera for added value?
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Paulo Bizarro

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Re: New Leica T-Type 701
« Reply #91 on: May 08, 2014, 03:53:18 AM »

The fact remains? The possibility exists, yes, but who has established this as fact? All I've read are claims & statements, along with varying degrees of self-righteous indignation.

Anyway, per my earlier post on the subject, I suspect the fuss is less about this particular product and more about a distaste for Leica's marketing & pricing strategy. A distaste those objecting to the strategy are mostly unwilling to directly express.

-Dave-

In my case, I have no distaste for Leica's marketing and pricing strategy. I know I will never have money to buy them:) Once upon a time I managed to buy a Leica CM, very nice camera. In my post, I never commented on their pricing, just that their representative was wrong in not being open about the correction subject.

Had I a distaste, you may be sure that I would have no problem in expressing it directly. I also can not understand all this "fan boyism" and defensive attitude, look, Leica does not need you to defend them:)

Telecaster

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Re: New Leica T-Type 701
« Reply #92 on: May 08, 2014, 03:55:21 PM »

I also can not understand all this "fan boyism" and defensive attitude, look, Leica does not need you to defend them:)

Hey, I'm interested not in allegation but information. Anyone can claim anything about anything. But what are the facts of the matter? Seems to me the matter is murky, therefore best not to make conclusions. I could care less about defending Leica...but neither am I predisposed to condemn them.

Since we're already way off-topic...I've attached a test pic taken with an M8 & Zeiss 21/2.8 lens. 720 nanometer IR filter, ISO 640, 1/30th sec., f/5.6, handheld. Processed on my iPad with PhotoRaw and Photogene. The lens has an IR focus offset mark, which in my testing is well placed. One person's flaw—"excessive" IR sensitivity—is another's "Hell, yeah!"

-Dave-
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bcooter

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Re: New Leica T-Type 701
« Reply #93 on: May 09, 2014, 05:45:00 AM »

Wow everyone.   Be cool.

All this is just fun talk about pretty little cameras to make pretty little pictures.

The Leica thing always freaks people out, I dunno why.

Maybe it's the Porsche 911 thing.  Some people see Le Man's victories, some see guys with gold chains, but honestly the brand stands for both.

Same with Leica.   It's a bauble to some, a well made tool for others, but it's nothing to get hot about.

This is my favorite m8 shot I did barcelona



IMO

BC
« Last Edit: May 09, 2014, 05:52:23 AM by bcooter »
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: New Leica T-Type 701
« Reply #94 on: May 09, 2014, 08:27:55 AM »

BC,

Nice picture, thanks for sharing.

Best regards
Erik

JV

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Re: New Leica T-Type 701
« Reply #95 on: August 10, 2014, 08:53:48 PM »

A review on La Vida Leica!.  It seems to fall a bit short…:
http://lavidaleica.com/content/hands-leica-t-type-701
« Last Edit: August 10, 2014, 08:59:49 PM by JV »
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scooby70

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Re: New Leica T-Type 701
« Reply #96 on: August 11, 2014, 10:36:27 AM »

A review on La Vida Leica!. It seems to fall a bit short…:
http://lavidaleica.com/content/hands-leica-t-type-701

Personally I see no reason what so ever to buy this system and if it was made by Samsung I doubt anyone would look twice at it. Maybe I'm being cruel but I suspect that the badge is everything and the only reason this will sell regardless of how many times it locks up. I think that not being able to stop it reviewing every shot would be enough by itself to make me drop kick it over a hedge.
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allegretto

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Re: New Leica T-Type 701
« Reply #97 on: August 16, 2014, 12:02:55 AM »

Wow everyone.   Be cool.

All this is just fun talk about pretty little cameras to make pretty little pictures.

The Leica thing always freaks people out, I dunno why.

Maybe it's the Porsche 911 thing.  Some people see Le Man's victories, some see guys with gold chains, but honestly the brand stands for both.

Same with Leica.   It's a bauble to some, a well made tool for others, but it's nothing to get hot about.



hmmm, I hope you know more about cameras than you do about vehicles…. really...
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Telecaster

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Re: New Leica T-Type 701
« Reply #98 on: August 16, 2014, 12:21:10 AM »

hmmm, I hope you know more about cameras than you do about vehicles…. really...

A bit pedantic, no? Porsche makes cars that run in Le Mans races. Guys with gold chains dig Porsches. Some of 'em anyway. BC's link is thereby established.   :D

-Dave-
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viewfinder

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Re: New Leica T-Type 701
« Reply #99 on: August 16, 2014, 08:54:35 AM »

allegretto obviously owns porche but finds gold chained men distasteful........This site can be so entertaining!
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