Canvas seeds and other manufacturer’s defects

[BillK]

I use breathing color Lyve exclusively and would like to add that it is not free of
seeds. Some rolls have been seed free, others not so much. If I am printing an image
with lots of light colored areas or sky I feed the canvas out of the printer to inspect it first.
PITA I know, but preferable to losing a large print.

Haven't had any problems with picking up dust by doing this. I think its better to risk dust than
a honking seed in the middle of the sky on a 6 foot plus print.

[Stephen G]

I've been using Lyve exclusively for the past 2.5 years. Up until a few months ago I trusted it completely. Maybe saw 1 or 2 seeds. In the last few months I've had rolls with in excess of 10 seeds per roll, and irregularities in the surface coating too. Hoping the next batches I receive are better.

[Justan]

How is BC for replacement when you get a seedy roll?

Thanks, Bill for the explanation about white colored GB.

[Justan]

It's interesting to compare the quality of the cotton input materials for inkjet canvas and cotton based fine art inkjet paper.

The inkjet paper having no seed impurities and the canvas often containing seed trash, is this a historical result of the base manufacturing mills using lower grade cotton and possibly also as a result of the lower quality demands of the original users of the canvas products i.e. artists using oil or acrylic paints?

It seems none of the manufacturing mills are able to raise the quality of the input cotton to produce seedless product for inkjet printing, you generally don't see seed trash in cotton based fabric products, something that end use manufacturers would immediately reject.

Also pricing difference between fine art cotton based paper and inkjet canvas is small so why can't manufacturers raise the quality?

Brian.

I’ve been looking for videos and articles on how canvas is made but have been unsuccessful. I have seen videos on how cotton ginning is done and the technique appears pretty reliable. I have not come across any technical documents on the number of seeds per lb. of cotton after ginning.

[bill t.]

^I think a few of BC's videos show brief clips of a coating machine running.  It looks very old, and really difficult to use, something only a few people would  know how to finesse.  But I assume a lot.

There are something like 3 contract manufacturing plants in the US that can make inkjet canvas.  I believe BC is closely involved with one of them, and I sometimes suspect that same plant runs some of Epson's canvases due to similarities in the packaging, batch numbering schemes, and sometimes even the substrates.

The companies that apply the inkjet emulsions to canvas are in some respects in the same boat we are.  They buy a batch of uncoated canvas on giant rolls, and slit it to size.  Sometimes what arrives on the boat is marginal crud, sometimes it's immaculate, and most times it's somewhere in-between.  But although I have never heard this stated by a manufacturer, I'm sure they pull their hair out over seeds and weaves etc as much as we do.  I suspect it's very difficult for US plants to return marginal substrate, for numerous reasons including contracts, price agreements, and cost of shipping.

I have often told canvas reps that I would be willing to pay a considerable premium for perfect canvas rolls.  That would actually save me money over cheaper canvas that wastes my time and resources.  But no, that will never happen, competitive pricing rules the day.  Most of those who buy canvas will continue to shoot themselves in the foot over price, even though it costs them in the long run.  I just wish some manufacturer would have the guts to use Perfection of Substrate as a marketing tool, rather than just hyping the emulsion.  It is my heretical view that the substrate is in most ways more important than the emulsion, at least for those who print a lot.

In my opinion this last Autumn set a new benchmark for canvas substrate issues.  So I have jumped ship.  It's fine art paper treated like canvas for me, from now on.

It's been great these last few weeks, knowing that I can start a print on my favorite fine-art paper in the certainty than I will wind up with a completely usable print.  The amount of stress relief is similar in magnitude to when I went from my clogtronic 9880 to the 8300.  Have not had a surface defect so far in 1,567 square feet.   Life is easy, and getting better every day.  It's those little things that really get to you, and their name is Seeds.

[Kanvas Keepsakes]

How is BC for replacement when you get a seedy roll?

Thanks, Bill for the explanation about white colored GB.

Anytime I had defects with BC, they always gladly shipped me a new roll.  Of course this was only 2 or 3 times where the Lyve had a bunch of seeds.  I'd still be using BC but due to the extremely slow shipping time and high price, I have switched from using BC. 

[Justan]

In my opinion this last Autumn set a new benchmark for canvas substrate issues.  So I have jumped ship.  It's fine art paper treated like canvas for me, from now on.

Thanks for this and the previous part of the comment.

Do any of your customers or those who represent your art care about the change?

Can the current media you are using be coated with a roller? I tried using a roller with some Hahnemuhle paper and the results were awful.

20% waste would definitely make me reconsider. If it was ongoing I’d look for a better solution, as you have. Heck, I usually have about 1 large print per roll wasted plus the last 5’ and that has me looking elsewhere.

This 44” roll is the bad gift that keeps on giving. Another 36” x 5’image was tossed. This time not because of seeds but because there were 5 places where the media flaked off after printing. I wrote the manufacturer again and asked them to refund or replace the roll. Surprisingly, I have not heard back but it’s Monday everywhere.

I just ordered a roll of HP canvas from Staples. They at least have a no BS refund/replacement policy.

This event is similar to what took place with my former frame maker. They did great for a while but their quality slipped and stayed that way so I went with a local provider. The local provider does great work, but it costs a little more. It is very much worth it as it makes keeping my production schedule on track way easier than the at least a 2 week lag of the former frame supplier.

I imagine that the canvas providers mostly sell to a vast market of fairly small volume users such as myself and everyone else reading this thread. They have to make a buck along the way and they do compete in the low cost range of the market. I think this invites the slippery slope where as long as quality is tolerated, people will live with it because that is way easier than having to deal with everything related to a major change in media. I do not understand why the original vendor has been hesitant to just replace. That is just odd.

[Justan]

Anytime I had defects with BC, they always gladly shipped me a new roll.  Of course this was only 2 or 3 times where the Lyve had a bunch of seeds.  I'd still be using BC but due to the extremely slow shipping time and high price, I have switched from using BC. 

Good to know. What are you using now and how is it for quality? Cost always plays a role.

[msongs]

rolls of canvas I get have bits of tape on them to keep the rolls from unrolling (tape put on at the manufacturer). When the tape is peeled off it leaves a residue. If I print over the tape marks, they show thru the image so the image has to be trashed. The only way to avoid this is to cut off the first 18 inches or so of the canvas and trash it. So I have spent my money to buy a product that is packaged in such a way as to have to toss it. Great money making racket eh?

After first use I use a paper sleeve to keep the canvas from unrolling. seems like the makers could do the same thing.

If you buy canvas does your maker use tape or a sleeve? They are taking our $$ and giving us stuff that has to be trashed.

Agree with the problems of the end of roll waste of up to 5 feet that has to be trashed because of the lumpy line across the canvas from the roll. we pay and we get unusable product.

Marshall

[Kanvas Keepsakes]

Justan, I'm currently using Lexjet Sunset Reserve Bright Matte.  So far so good.  Not so smooth so it actually looks like you're printing on canvas, not on regular paper like some other smoother canvas types.  I'm happy with it.  Colors are awesome on it.  Stretching is a breeze with it.  No complaints yet.  I can order on Monday and have it at my house on Wednesday which I love. 

[Justan]

Well the vendor’s rep got back to me yesterday afternoon. The rep I spoke with called. Previously we communicated by email. He apologized profusely and said essentially his head was not in the game last week, and that he ended up in the ER later on Friday.

He offered to let me keep the current crap roll and just send another. I mentioned that I was days behind on my schedule due to the crap roll and he said he’d overnight the replacement. I thought that was a good gesture. In addition he said they’d give me credit for whatever footage is damaged in the future. Clearly I should have complained before and it was my mistake to not do so. I mentioned that I have a pile of defective prints.

I’m still gonna try some other brands.

Replies and follow ups to some other few posts below:

Haven't had any problems with picking up dust by doing this. I think it’s better to risk dust than a honking seed in the middle of the sky on a 6 foot plus print.

I may have to try this. Problem here is both dust and cat hair, plus even if I find a seed or defect, I can’t do anything about it except start the next print after that point. Of course then I have to pull out another up to 7’ and look. I guess I should just plan on some problems as part of the work flow. It would at least save ink…

rolls of canvas I get have bits of tape on them to keep the rolls from unrolling (tape put on at the manufacturer). When the tape is peeled off it leaves a residue. If I print over the tape marks, they show thru the image so the image has to be trashed. The only way to avoid this is to cut off the first 18 inches or so of the canvas and trash it. So I have spent my money to buy a product that is packaged in such a way as to have to toss it. Great money making racket eh?

I typically do a color calibration at the front of each roll but you’re right. The first part is trashed due to the tape. In contrast, with the paper based media I’ve bought, there is always a sleeve wrapped around the paper and the tape applied to the sleeve.

Agree with the problems of the end of roll waste of up to 5 feet that has to be trashed because of the lumpy line across the canvas from the roll. we pay and we get unusable product.

I asked the rep to have his manager look at what BC does. He (the rep) said they put an extra couple of feet on the roll due to the crease and said he was not aware that there were creases 5’ from the end. I noted that they would greatly help themselves by being competitive and noted that there can’t be much cost for this added feature.

Justan, I'm currently using Lexjet Sunset Reserve Bright Matte.  So far so good.  Not so smooth so it actually looks like you're printing on canvas, not on regular paper like some other smoother canvas types.  I'm happy with it.  Colors are awesome on it.  Stretching is a breeze with it.  No complaints yet.  I can order on Monday and have it at my house on Wednesday which I love.

Thanks for the tip. One of the things I like about Lexjet is that they provide fast delivery. Someone also suggested Lexjet Sunset Production Matte Canvas – 100% poly. The problem here is that I just can’t see telling people about the virtue of poly. While it is probably superior in some ways, people just don’t warm up to it due to generations of use in cheap suits and golf attire.

[BillK]

The seeds will only show in light colored areas, usually sky's.
Many times flipping the image 180 degrees before printing will place the seed in a area
where it won't be seen. Or if you are printing a series of images, maybe printing another one
will place the seed in a area it won't be seen. The only prints I have ever trashed because of seeds
are ones I didn't inspect the canvas first and ended up with a seed in a light colored area.

So I don't agree with the statement "I can’t do anything about it except start the next print after that point."
If there is a major weave problem, thats a different story.

I may have to try this. Problem here is both dust and cat hair, plus even if I find a seed or defect, I can’t do anything about it except start the next print after that point. Of course then I have to pull out another up to 7’ and look. I guess I should just plan on some problems as part of the work flow. It would at least save ink…

[Justan]

^Your choice entirely. I suppose it’s possible to have a seed that’s completely hidden. Not sure any color would hide the typical budge seeds produce.

Haven’t come across an observable weave related problems at this point but I’m sure it’ll happen sooner or later.

[BillK]

The seeds seen in BC Lyve are very very tiny specs. I have never seen a bump or any other indication
of texture change with a seed. Since you are not using lyve, we are probably not talking about the same degree of
problem. I have only ever seen seeds in skies or light areas, never in dark areas or areas where there is any type of pattern
detail.

No, I don't have any connection with Breathing Color. Just a customer.

[Justan]

^Thanks for 'splaining.

[Kanvas Keepsakes]

Out of all the canvas types I've tried, BC's Lyve is the only one that would give me seed problems.  Then for a couple months they kept saying "What?  Hmmm . . maybe it's your printer spotting?  DOn't know what that is" until I finally spoke to someone else at BC that said "Oh those are cotton seeds."  Ugh.  Anyway, they were always very good about replacing rolls for me but man what a waste of ink.  And the canvas isn't cheap either

[Justan]

^Thanks. I suppose they all have seeds from time, or at least things that look like seeds.

One of the reasons I tried HP is that no one on the forum has mentioned it recently and in theory it may be an excellent match for the z3x series printers. The HP pro series canvas claims longevity up to 200 years, in accordance with the vivera inks. They claim it to be "museum quality", whatever that means.   What could it hurt to try?