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Author Topic: Pentax 645Z  (Read 78376 times)

eronald

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Re: Pentax 645Z
« Reply #380 on: August 25, 2014, 04:51:16 PM »

Edmund,

last time I looked all the medium format guys were still doing good business.

IMO

BC


Well, that is technically true.

Sinar seems to have been acquired by Leica, but have stopped marketing Jenoptik's tech in the guise of untethered backs AFAIK. Rollei-based bodies are seen very very rarely. Mamiya had some digital products of their own, but have since been acquired by Phase.  Kodak made some backs which still have fans in Russia, but this founding giant has ascended to Nirvana, while Leaf seems to have turned into a Phase sub-brand. Hassy has been rumored to have some financial issues, which I hope are not too severe, and to be a candidate for acquisition. And two minor but important players, Truesense and Dalsa appear to have stopped updating their medium format sensor line.

There is a technical term to describe people like me, it's something like argumentative a*****e, but there is also a technical term in Freudian analysis for describing the forgotten painful past, I think it is "repressed memory" :) .

Edmund



« Last Edit: August 25, 2014, 05:13:21 PM by eronald »
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EricWHiss

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Re: Pentax 645Z
« Reply #381 on: August 25, 2014, 05:08:04 PM »

,... so this must be taken with a grain of salt as all reviews are.

A grain of salt and then maybe the whole shaker thrown in.   ;)

Here in this thread you have some very good feedback on the system from actual owners and users . why go pay money for a single sample review from a person not previously familiar with the product?  
« Last Edit: August 25, 2014, 05:18:43 PM by EricWHiss »
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EricWHiss

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Re: Pentax 645Z
« Reply #382 on: August 25, 2014, 05:10:20 PM »

It sounds like the Pentax 645Z may be a winner.  I'm very curious to try one myself.

The thing about comparing MFDB to DSLR is that it seems there is no convenient way to compare other facets of image quality and character than sharpness, and also just how much one can lift the shadows.   To me that's just a tiny portion of what makes up an image.     For that reason I do appreciate comments such as Dave's who reports that the lens is pleasing for portraits wide open even if it isn't sharp at that aperture.   
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LKaven

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Re: Pentax 645Z
« Reply #383 on: August 25, 2014, 05:26:52 PM »

The business of engineering MFD backs has traditionally required the arcane craft of designing analog front ends for maximum performance.  The new Sony sensor delivers digital output, which simplifies the task considerably.  I think it is apt to enquire as to why the IQ-250 costs $35000 in comparison to $8500 for the 645Z.  No matter how the question of "professional value" is weighed, I think there has got to be some stress on PhaseOne's formula.  And no criticism of DT and CI is implied in anything said so far.  Their sales staff could sell MF equipment all day long at competitive prices.

eronald

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Re: Pentax 645Z
« Reply #384 on: August 25, 2014, 07:15:46 PM »

Regarding the $35K of the Phase, without lens, here is a 100% crop from my Sigma DP3M. This is what consumers can now routinely expect from a $400 compact. Surely, Phase can be expected to do much better for $35K? Is tethering alone really worth that much, as the artist now called Cooter indicates? In that case, maybe there is money to be made from Nikon D810 tethering software ...

(click on the image a second time to enlarge).

Edmund

The business of engineering MFD backs has traditionally required the arcane craft of designing analog front ends for maximum performance.  The new Sony sensor delivers digital output, which simplifies the task considerably.  I think it is apt to enquire as to why the IQ-250 costs $35000 in comparison to $8500 for the 645Z.  No matter how the question of "professional value" is weighed, I think there has got to be some stress on PhaseOne's formula.  And no criticism of DT and CI is implied in anything said so far.  Their sales staff could sell MF equipment all day long at competitive prices.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2014, 07:23:58 PM by eronald »
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Manoli

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Re: Pentax 645Z
« Reply #385 on: August 25, 2014, 07:58:00 PM »

Regarding the $35K of the Phase, without lens, here is a 100% crop from my Sigma DP3M...

And another; Iridient Developer imported into Lightroom 5 - no pp.
Cooter, not quite like Edmund's;  off-set 'talent' - can you match those skin tones ,, ?
« Last Edit: August 25, 2014, 08:09:48 PM by Manoli »
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EricWHiss

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Re: Pentax 645Z
« Reply #386 on: August 26, 2014, 12:10:37 AM »

And another; Iridient Developer imported into Lightroom 5 - no pp.
Cooter, not quite like Edmund's;  off-set 'talent' - can you match those skin tones ,, ?
That looks so much more like a painting to me than a person, I wouldn't be surprised to hear it was true.
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EricWHiss

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Re: Pentax 645Z
« Reply #387 on: August 26, 2014, 12:20:56 AM »

Edmund  + Manoli,
I tested the Sigma DP3 with their 1 week trial.   I wasn't really impressed with the camera, skin tones,  or colors, but then it's possible I didn't invest enough time to learn their software.

Here's an example of something you can't probably do with the sigma DP3: With a larger sensor of the AFi-ii 12, the DOF can be really small even with the normal focal length.   80mm Xenotar wide open.    You can't even recognize the orange spots as flowers just behind him let alone the cars parked on the street behind.  I know there are very fast lenses out there for DSLR's (I have several f/1.2 lenses for 35mm format) but I believe that this is an area where MF still has advantages. 
« Last Edit: August 26, 2014, 12:30:17 AM by EricWHiss »
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eronald

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Re: Pentax 645Z
« Reply #388 on: August 26, 2014, 12:45:53 AM »

Edmund  + Manoli,
I tested the Sigma DP3 with their 1 week trial.   I wasn't really impressed with the camera, skin tones,  or colors, but then it's possible I didn't invest enough time to learn their software.

Here's an example of something you can't probably do with the sigma DP3: With a larger sensor of the AFi-ii 12, the DOF can be really small even with the normal focal length.   80mm Xenotar wide open.    You can't even recognize the orange spots as flowers just behind him let alone the cars parked on the street behind.  I know there are very fast lenses out there for DSLR's (I have several f/1.2 lenses for 35mm format) but I believe that this is an area where MF still has advantages.  

Eric,

 I'll be the first to say that MF has advantages. One of which is as you state achieving separation with a "normal" focal length.

 As your criticism of the DP series skin tones goes, I vote with you too.  Of course, legacy CCD MF had the very best skin tone, the jury is still out on the Sony sensor.

 I just wish the MF crowd got its act together and made some cheaper and better cameras - oh, wait, that's what Pentax have started to do ...

Edmund
« Last Edit: August 26, 2014, 12:58:29 AM by eronald »
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Manoli

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Re: Pentax 645Z
« Reply #389 on: August 26, 2014, 01:55:32 AM »

That looks so much more like a painting to me than a person, I wouldn't be surprised to hear it was true.

Eric,
Almost. Poolside decor !

But, yes, I would agree with your and Edmund's remarks. I don't think that the sensor even matches the A7r/D800 class of camera, certainly not with excellent lenses mounted. In limit DR / subdued lighting, the camera copes, but pushed, it's failed where even a Sony RX100 has coped. A curio 'cam' .

And now back to the 645...

M
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EricWHiss

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Re: Pentax 645Z
« Reply #390 on: August 26, 2014, 02:14:08 AM »

Yes, I think for the price especially the 645Z may be really great.  I am less excited about the CMOS than perhaps I should be because it seems always a give away of base ISO IQ for higher ISO performance, but hey maybe the Pentax lenses with design for much larger film coverage will be sharp to the edges of the sensor crop?
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Pentax 645Z
« Reply #391 on: August 26, 2014, 05:12:42 AM »

Edmund  + Manoli,
I tested the Sigma DP3 with their 1 week trial.   I wasn't really impressed with the camera, skin tones,  or colors, but then it's possible I didn't invest enough time to learn their software.

Here's an example of something you can't probably do with the sigma DP3: With a larger sensor of the AFi-ii 12, the DOF can be really small even with the normal focal length.   80mm Xenotar wide open.    You can't even recognize the orange spots as flowers just behind him let alone the cars parked on the street behind.  I know there are very fast lenses out there for DSLR's (I have several f/1.2 lenses for 35mm format) but I believe that this is an area where MF still has advantages.  

Hi Eric,

This is a nice rendering indeed, but there are quite a few lenses in 35mm that can delivery similar results.

Just speaking about the F mount that I know best, some lenses such as the Nikkor 58mm f1.4 have been specifically designed to offer nice bokeh and I think they are doing a good job at that. There are very nice samples over at fredmiranda.com: http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1253369/29

Others such as the Otus have a more generic design but are still doing a pretty good job bokehwise, although the 58mm f1.4 is clearly superior on that metrics. That's first hand experience:



I do unfortunately not own one, but other lenses, such as the 200mm f2.0 do, IMHO, deliver an even nicer rendering, albeit at the cost of weight and size. There are wonderful examples in this thread over at fredmiranda.com too: http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1172604

Cheers,
Bernard

« Last Edit: August 26, 2014, 06:10:18 AM by BernardLanguillier »
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Manoli

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Re: Pentax 645Z
« Reply #392 on: August 26, 2014, 06:24:58 AM »

I am less excited about the CMOS than perhaps I should be because it seems always a give away of base ISO IQ for higher ISO performance ...

Isn't that the crux of the matter ?

No matter the CMOS advances, it seems to me that many still yearn for that CCD quality, whether real or imagined. At least for portraiture and controlled environments, base ISO CCD still rules, IMO. It's not just MF, even the M8/M9 v the newer Leica sensors have it. Now, my guess is that the market value of good, used Leica S's at 7,500 / $10,000 will prove to be a market bottom controlled not least by the price of the 645z. Take your pick.

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BartvanderWolf

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Re: Pentax 645Z
« Reply #393 on: August 26, 2014, 06:41:00 AM »

... base ISO CCD still rules, ...

Hi,

At what does it rule?

Cheers,
Bart
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Manoli

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Re: Pentax 645Z
« Reply #394 on: August 26, 2014, 07:04:25 AM »

Hi,

At what does it rule?

Cheers,
Bart

Hi Bart,

The market.

Skin tones, texture and IQ in portraiture and controlled lighting environments - studio. It is my personal (biased) opinion but also what I see from the 'market' - very few fashion / studio pros, that I've come across, have made a move away from CCD in favour of CMOS entirely.

Perhaps the new CMOS sensor and CFA's in MF will change that, but for the time being ... not yet!

M

Edit:

I've even heard that it's now becoming harder to source quality used M9's. Demand seems to be stronger there than expected. Leica UK have even launched a previously unheard of buy-back program for used Leica's in part exchange for the M (240). Sales aren't what they hoped - but I guess that that's not just due to CCD v CMOS ... [/surprise]


« Last Edit: August 26, 2014, 07:11:55 AM by Manoli »
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powerslave12r

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Re: Pentax 645Z
« Reply #395 on: August 26, 2014, 09:20:45 AM »

Sigma, brilliant or fatally flawed, brilliant or fatally flawed, brilliant or fatally flawed... 
Brilliant and fatally flawed.
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bcooter

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Re: Pentax 645Z
« Reply #396 on: August 26, 2014, 09:40:00 AM »

ccd, or the lens, or the time of day, don't care, I just know what I see and what it looks like when I work.

This was a p21+ on Contax


p30+ also on contax


would they look different on cmos, to me yes, because in both instances I started with a 1ds3 shot a few frames and went to the phase.

I do know that I could sell my phase and contax in a heartbeat for a decent price because I turn down offers a few times a year and I've never advertised them for sale, just like m9's are also going for a premium over m240's.

Even my m8 still sees use

The best part is they're still viable, I still use them, probably always will.

IMO

BC

« Last Edit: August 26, 2014, 09:44:32 AM by bcooter »
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MrSmith

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Re: Pentax 645Z
« Reply #397 on: August 26, 2014, 09:49:52 AM »

wondering how the stylist other half of R and R got on taking the jacket back? ::)
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bcooter

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Re: Pentax 645Z
« Reply #398 on: August 26, 2014, 10:05:38 AM »

wondering how the stylist other half of R and R got on taking the jacket back? ::)


If it's used on set we generally don't return it and if we do it's under the studio rental agreements.

Obviously this could never be returned anyway, though we had it cleaned and keep it in our wardrobe room.

BC

MrSmith

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Re: Pentax 645Z
« Reply #399 on: August 26, 2014, 10:10:21 AM »

nice to have the budget, unfortunately the 250k wristwatches i shoot come with a chaperone and have to be returned.  :-[
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