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Author Topic: Pentax 645Z  (Read 156678 times)

eronald

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Re: Pentax 645Z
« Reply #400 on: August 26, 2014, 10:59:18 am »

Manoli,

 There's always the CMOS 645D, sold at $5K now new, lurking at the market bottom.

 Regarding the M9, they seem to have a sensor or cover glass issue, and Leica is running out of repair parts.

Edmund
 


I've even heard that it's now becoming harder to source quality used M9's. Demand seems to be stronger there than expected. Leica UK have even launched a previously unheard of buy-back program for used Leica's in part exchange for the M (240). Sales aren't what they hoped - but I guess that that's not just due to CCD v CMOS ... [/surprise]



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jerome_m

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Re: Pentax 645Z
« Reply #401 on: August 26, 2014, 12:07:31 pm »


Quote
The opposite may actually be true. My experience with MF format lenses, although not directly from Pentax, is that they are much, much better than what is generally available in 24x36.

The reason is actually quite simple: MF lenses are generally bigger than their 24x36 counterparts (even when counting the difference in coverage) and slower. The optical engineer does not have to optimise for size or aperture.

Lloyd has been looking into this, comparing the Pentax 24 mm with the Zeiss 21 on A7r, and also Pentax 90 mm with Otus, i think. I am not sure about the outcome, but I felt he preferred the smaller formats.


Lloyd is entitled to prefer what he does, but that does not change the facts and the laws of optics. And the facts are that it is simply easier to design slower and less compact lenses.


Quote
The third part is that there is a need of stopping for aperture on MFD, if I can shoot with DSLR at 5.6 and need to stop down an MFD to f/11, diffraction will affect the MFD while the DSLR is still in the optimal region.

If your subject implies large depth of field, indeed larger sensors are at a disadvantage. But this has nothing to do with the intrinsic quality of lenses. Besides, smaller sensors reach diffraction faster with their smaller pixels.

Quote
I would also say, that all these may be pixel peeping differences, quite visible at actual pixels on screen, but this not the way pictures are normally presented. Pictures are either shown on screen. Which has two megapixels, or in prints.


Obviously, a MF camera is rarely required if all output will be 2 mpix max. OTOH, fine art inkjet papers are available in 150 cm (60") wide versions. This allows slightly bigger prints than you seem to consider.
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LKaven

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Re: Pentax 645Z
« Reply #402 on: August 26, 2014, 12:13:23 pm »

No matter the CMOS advances, it seems to me that many still yearn for that CCD quality, whether real or imagined.

I don't know what to tell those who yearn for imaginary quality.

Well that's just the thing.  We still don't know if there /is/ such a quality in principle. 

jerome_m

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Re: Pentax 645Z
« Reply #403 on: August 26, 2014, 12:20:25 pm »

Just speaking about the F mount that I know best, some lenses such as the Nikkor 58mm f1.4 have been specifically designed to offer nice bokeh and I think they are doing a good job at that. There are very nice samples over at fredmiranda.com: http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1253369/29

As the linked examples show, that lens suffers from swirly bokeh wide open, which means that the background appears to rotate around the subject. This is an artefact that results from the entrance of the lens designed too small for the maximum aperture, so that the side of the entrance of the lens vignette the sides of the diaphragm. Typically, the image of out of focus point lights will be round near the center and will have a cat eye shape near the sides.

This is an artefact that is typical of the combination of two factors: large aperture and physically small lens. Nikon engineers could have avoided the problem by making the lens twice as large. The effect also disappears when the aperture is closed down, typically to f/2.0-f/2.8 on this kind of lens. It is actually a good example of the artefacts that arise from the constraints of 24x36 lenses. MF lenses are typically slower and quite large and avoid that particular artefact as a consequence.
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EricWHiss

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Re: Pentax 645Z
« Reply #404 on: August 26, 2014, 12:21:44 pm »

This is a nice rendering indeed, but there are quite a few lenses in 35mm that can delivery similar results.

Hi Bernard,
This is worthy of a separate topic probably, and some more investigation, but in your nice sample image you can still recognize all the things in the foreground and background.  There is separation of the subject, but I think its just different with the larger sensor.   The roll off into OOF is much faster and the blur more profound.
But that's only my feeling from casual shooting.  Perhaps a more rigorous study would reveal the truth.
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Paul2660

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Re: Pentax 645Z
« Reply #405 on: August 26, 2014, 12:24:27 pm »

Manoli,

 There's always the CMOS 645D, sold at $5K now new, lurking at the market bottom.

 Regarding the M9, they seem to have a sensor or cover glass issue, and Leica is running out of repair parts.

Edmund
 


The 645D is Kodak CCD.  If you are referring to the Pentax 645D

Paul

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jerome_m

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Re: Pentax 645Z
« Reply #406 on: August 26, 2014, 12:34:20 pm »

in your nice sample image you can still recognize all the things in the foreground and background.

But this is what "bokeh" is about! Any lens fast enough can throw the background into an unrecognisable fog. The concept of "bokeh", for the Japanese, is about a subject that is visually out of focus, yet still recognisable.
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eronald

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Re: Pentax 645Z
« Reply #407 on: August 26, 2014, 01:49:17 pm »

The 645D is Kodak CCD.  If you are referring to the Pentax 645D

Paul



Yes I meant the Pentax 645D (CCD). I don't think this is quite dead yet, there is space for the price to go down, and the used ones will be at $2.5K soon ...

Edmund
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Manoli

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Re: Pentax 645Z
« Reply #408 on: August 26, 2014, 02:26:55 pm »

Regarding the M9, they seem to have a sensor or cover glass issue, and Leica is running out of repair parts.

Edmund,

Thanks for the heads-up. Surprising though, isn't the M9/M-E sensor made by TrueSense?

M
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Pentax 645Z
« Reply #409 on: August 26, 2014, 02:30:27 pm »


Lloyd is entitled to prefer what he does, but that does not change the facts and the laws of optics. And the facts are that it is simply easier to design slower and less compact lenses.

It may have occurred to you that both the Otus and the Sigma Art are big lenses. The Otus gets diffraction limited somewhere between f/4 and f/5.6. Both lenses use a generous amount SD glass and also aspherical elements. Obviously much smaller designs would be possible if near optimal sharpness at f/1.4 was not required.

The Sony 55/1.8 EF lens is a good example of a very sharp lens with slightly smaller maximum aperture. That is a relatively small lens.

If your subject implies large depth of field, indeed larger sensors are at a disadvantage. But this has nothing to do with the intrinsic quality of lenses. Besides, smaller sensors reach diffraction faster with their smaller pixels.
 
Quote
Obviously, a MF camera is rarely required if all output will be 2 mpix max. OTOH, fine art inkjet papers are available in 150 cm (60") wide versions. This allows slightly bigger prints than you seem to consider.
Well, the reason I discuss A2 size prints is that many folks have 17" wide printers and those produce about A2 size prints, and the reason I looked into it was pretty much because a poster asked about visible advantage with MFD. What I see here is that there is small, or possibly none difference in that size between 24 MP full frame using upper end zooms and Hasselblad V-series primes in A2-size prints viewed at 40-50cm distance with normal vision. With 36 MP and high end primes the difference would be less.

In larger sizes the differences are more visible. I do print larger, but not larger than 70x100 cm as I lack wall space. Anyway, it is a fact that screens dont't display more than around 2MP with present technology, 8MP with 4K and 36 MP with 8K. I would love to have an 4K projector, but the few that are around are very expensive. Of course, if you afford MFD you can also afford 4K projection, but it will still only use around 66% of the capability of a 24 MP DSLR. What I say is simply that pixel peeping at actual pixels doesn't have relevance for any normal way to present images. Unless you print very large images at 100 PPI (as computer screens normally have around 100PPI).

Also if you have a large image, you probably need to reposition the observer when comparing images. Small images can be compared with one image on he top of the other, much more demanding comparison. You can of course do that with small crops of large images.

Regardinf diffraction, as an engineer you should be aware that diffraction is not dependent of pixel size, it is just a function of aperture. Of course with a sharper lens or a more high resolving sensor you are going to loose more.

Very clearly, if you are shooting flat objects, use optimal apertures with perfect focusing and near perfect lenses a larger sensor will yield better results.

Also, larger sensors and truly excellent lenses like the HR lenses from Rodenstock and Schneider may offer more visual advantage.

Another point, quite relevant here, is that this discussion is not about MFD vs. DSLRs but about the 645Z. The 645Z is a small sensor MFD device, it is just 44x33mm. Also, very few of the Pentax lenses are modern designs. Lloyd has tested a dozen or so of them on the Pentax 645D.

These two videos may offer some insight in the relevant parameters, even if they are about motion pictures and not stills:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=iBKDjLeNlsQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=v96yhEr-DWM

The message is quite clear, the low frequency MTF is mouch more relevant for perceived sharpness than high frequency detail, and the high frequency detail is what we see when we pixel peep. I am pretty sure this also applies to stills.

Best regards
Erik
« Last Edit: August 26, 2014, 03:05:59 pm by ErikKaffehr »
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eronald

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Re: Pentax 645Z
« Reply #410 on: August 26, 2014, 02:33:55 pm »

Edmund,

Thanks for the heads-up. Surprising though, isn't the M9/M-E sensor made by TrueSense?

M

Yes, it was. I don't know how what the status of CCD fabs is these days, and whether it makes sense for Leica to order up a new batch. My impression is that CCD might soon become an obsolete technology, a bit like electronic valves.

The M8 also has repair spare issues, I was told by Leica about a year ago that instead of certain repairs (sensor?) they swapped them for an M9 for Euro 2K, a lot of money, I guess nowadays it would be an M240 ... However AFAIK, the M8 does not have the same degree of sensor failures as the M9/P which first had a bunch of cracked sensors and now the current spotting problem.

Edmund
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Manoli

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Re: Pentax 645Z
« Reply #411 on: August 26, 2014, 03:21:43 pm »

The M8 also has repair spare issues, I was told by Leica about a year ago that instead of certain repairs (sensor?) they swapped them for an M9 for Euro 2K, a lot of money, I guess nowadays it would be an M240 ...

Which, it would seem, Leica UK are trying to encourage with their buy-back program. The M8 has got an end-of-life designation on it. No more rear LCD's. Something akin to facing the guillotine if you get a parking fine ...

Seems as though, soon, a sensor will be but a four-letter word - SONY.

M
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tsjanik

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Re: Pentax 645Z
« Reply #412 on: August 26, 2014, 03:45:02 pm »

Edmund  + Manoli,
I tested the Sigma DP3 with their 1 week trial.   I wasn't really impressed with the camera, skin tones,  or colors, but then it's possible I didn't invest enough time to learn their software.
.........................................

I tested the Q as well Eric.  The resolution of the sensor is remarkable, but I had some real difficulty with color; in particular color bleed.  Here's an example comparing heavy crops of a 645D to DPQ.  The marigolds are red with yellow as they appear in the 645D image.  I had never used the Sigma software before so inexperience may play a part.




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eronald

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Re: Pentax 645Z
« Reply #413 on: August 26, 2014, 03:59:28 pm »

I tested the Q as well Eric.  The resolution of the sensor is remarkable, but I had some real difficulty with color; in particular color bleed.  Here's an example comparing heavy crops of a 645D to DPQ.  The marigolds are red with yellow as they appear in the 645D image.  I had never used the Sigma software before so inexperience may play a part.






Yeah, I had a bunch of primary-color issues too on the Merrill, and have adopted the strategy of shooting it only at base ISO with at least 1 stop compensation, and spot metering,  as soon as saturated primary colors eg. flowers are in the field. The autoexposure mechanism on all my dSLRs gets fooled too in this case,  and the dSLR histogram (based on sRGB) is erroneous. On the positive side, CCD digital backs are usually overrated by 1 stop or so, show foolproof raw histograms (I think),  and do not need the underexposure. The problem is that the Merrills do not really have the DR to deal with much more than one stop underex, at least in color.

The Sigma is pretty typical in all ways of an MF camera, as FredJean remarked a few years ago, it needs tight control on the part of the photographer in order to deliver superb quality. It looks like a compact but it isn't a compact. And if you don't shoot it and process it exactly right, your picture is a mess. Color reflections or mixed light will also wreck your shot. In my experience, dSLRs are much more "what you see on Day One is what you get"; set a dSLR camera at "P", Iso at 200 and the quality you get from Lightroom after unboxing  the camera is representative of what you'll see for the next 3 years or so. The sensors are if not accurate at least forgiving, and Lightroom/ACR can save just about any shot.

Edmund

« Last Edit: August 26, 2014, 05:05:25 pm by eronald »
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Telecaster

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Re: Pentax 645Z
« Reply #414 on: August 26, 2014, 04:07:55 pm »

...that lens suffers from swirly bokeh wide open...

Suffers is just a declaration of taste. I like the swirly bokeh look. Pentax's 120/4 macro (645 version) has a similar (though not quite as intense) quality wide open, one reason why I personally prefer it over the new 90mm macro.

-Dave-
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jerome_m

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Re: Pentax 645Z
« Reply #415 on: August 26, 2014, 04:27:17 pm »


Quote
Lloyd is entitled to prefer what he does, but that does not change the facts and the laws of optics. And the facts are that it is simply easier to design slower and less compact lenses.

It may have occurred to you that both the Otus and the Sigma Art are big lenses. The Otus gets diffraction limited somewhere between f/4 and f/5.6. Both lenses use a generous amount SD glass and also aspherical elements. Obviously much smaller designs would be possible if near optimal sharpness at f/1.4 was not required.

The Sony 55/1.8 EF lens is a good example of a very sharp lens with slightly smaller maximum aperture. That is a relatively small lens.

So what? I did not say that it is not possible to manufacture good lenses for 24x36 cameras, but that the priorities of the two markets are different.

 
Quote
Quote
Obviously, a MF camera is rarely required if all output will be 2 mpix max. OTOH, fine art inkjet papers are available in 150 cm (60") wide versions. This allows slightly bigger prints than you seem to consider.


Well, the reason I discuss A2 size prints is that many folks have 17" wide printers and those produce about A2 size prints, and the reason I looked into it was pretty much because a poster asked about visible advantage with MFD. What I see here is that there is small, or possibly none difference in that size between 24 MP full frame using upper end zooms and Hasselblad V-series primes in A2-size prints viewed at 40-50cm distance with normal vision. With 36 MP and high end primes the difference would be less.

You should try to go to a museum exhibiting pictures by Andreas Gursky or Hiroshi Sugimoto.

This discussion is ridiculous. In effect, you are saying that people do not need any more than so many pixels because they only have A2 printers and when they have bigger printers the public should not be allowed to come close to the prints, etc... I have seen this argument many times.

Except that they are photographers who print huge pictures, hang them in museums and the public is allowed to come close. And the effect of these large prints is extraordinary. Size matters.

Now, let us suppose that I want to make wall-size pictures that will look as sharp as the real thing up close because I want to duplicate that overwhelming experience. What camera should I get?
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jerome_m

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Re: Pentax 645Z
« Reply #416 on: August 26, 2014, 04:28:59 pm »

Quote
...that lens suffers from swirly bokeh wide open...

Suffers is just a declaration of taste. I like the swirly bokeh look. Pentax's 120/4 macro (645 version) has a similar (though not quite as intense) quality wide open, one reason why I personally prefer it over the new 90mm macro.

Indeed it is. I find swirly bokeh downright repulsive. You are entitled to a different opinion, of course. Tastes differ.
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tsjanik

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Re: Pentax 645Z
« Reply #417 on: August 26, 2014, 05:26:47 pm »

...........................

..................... The Pentax 90mm seems to be the only truly outstanding lens in the Pentax line up as we speak ........................

The details are interesting and I recommend anyone interested in this comparison to subscribe to DAP at diglloyd.com, but in short he finds that the 90mm Pentax is the only lens thanks to which the 645Z isn't inferior to a D810 + a good 35 mm equivalent lens. Now he didn't test multiple samples,... so this must be taken with a grain of salt as all reviews are.

Cheers,
Bernard


Hi Bernard:

I generally agree with your thoughts, but I must take exception to this one.  Despite my interest in the Z, I have not subscribed to Lloyd's site.  I did when he reviewed the 645D and I even supplied some of the lenses he tested.  I like his writing style, although it is bit caustic at times,  and he often has valuable insights, but I discovered his results and mine don't always agree even using the same lenses.

I have many of the Pentax 645 lenses and most are excellent unless you shoot wide open and even then the 600mm f/5.6, 300mm f/4 (I use the 67 version) and 120 macro are very good.  The 120 macro (both the FA and older A version) out resolve the 645D sensor.  This is just my experience, but it agrees with any number of posts from users of the camera and I find this collective consensus more reliable than one tester's report.

Best,

Tom

A wide open example using the 600:

_IGP8972 by tsjanik47, on Flickr
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Ken R

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Re: Pentax 645Z
« Reply #418 on: August 26, 2014, 05:39:42 pm »

Suffers is just a declaration of taste. I like the swirly bokeh look. Pentax's 120/4 macro (645 version) has a similar (though not quite as intense) quality wide open, one reason why I personally prefer it over the new 90mm macro.

-Dave-

I noticed that. I really do not like the new 90mm macro bokeh. Seems quite harsh to me even at middle distances when shooting portraits wide open. The 120mm (A) macro that I have is much nicer in that regard. The new 55mm f2.8 has decent bokeh though but its a shorter lens, works well wide open though.

Someone mentioned how the 645D have gone down in price. Its an excellent camera and just because the 645Z came out it does not mean the 645D stopped working or are all of the sudden garbage. :D If you watch your highlight exposures the 645D is awesome for a lot of photography. I still would rather have one of the Phase/Leaf fat pixel backs (more versatile, can mount it on a wide range of cameras) but the 645D is a great value nowadays.
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Ken R

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Re: Pentax 645Z
« Reply #419 on: August 26, 2014, 07:35:11 pm »

A comment about 645D / 645Z service and reliability.

Check out these recent posts by users / owners:

"The joy of early adoption...

Spoken to Pentax tech support today and it seems I'm going to have to return my 645z. The rear wheel is not functioning at all. It stopped a few days ago and started again but now it's completely non functioning. Anyone else experienced this? I've tried every button combination to get it going plus resetting the camera but so far nothing.

Hugely disappointed with Pentax support. They've asked me to post the camera at my own expense and convenience back to them? No mention of replacement cameras. That is terribly poor customer service, especially considering the cost of the camera. They could take a leaf out of Fuji's book who arrange couriers and replacement cameras very quickly. I guess that is the price one pays for buying into a Pentax MF over a phase one or hassy.

Not a happy customer."

"Sorry bad choice of phrasing on my part, I didn't mean the actual financial price one pays but more the relative detrimental customer experience. It's a new and comparatively small venture for Pentax and perhaps they don't have the customer support expected by the photographers that are using their MF products that Hassy and Phase One have.

For example I've had issues with a Hassy H4D before on a shoot and their tech department arranged for a new body to be couriered the same day. Hasselblad and Phase One are used to dealing with professionals on jobs using their equipment whereas it seems Pentax are not.

I'm in the middle of shooting a reasonable sized jobby and to be told to post the camera back at my own expense and convenience with no replacement/loan in my opinion is not acceptable."

Another:

"When the 645D came out, there was a spate of control wheel failures in the first shipments, and I believe most of these cameras were exchanged. At least the ones I know about.

My first Pentax 645Z was dead on arrival -- phase detect autofocus through the lens was completely non-functional, on all lenses. I took it back to my dealer and they replaced it over the counter with their last remaining stock camera, no questions asked. I've owned the 645D for nearly 4 years, and had two shutters fail on the same body, a couple of years apart; once under warranty, once out of warranty. In both cases I took the camera to my dealer, and they made arrangements for the camera to go back to Japan for repair. I was without the camera for 10 weeks for the first warranty repair, and the 2nd time I've been without it for 7 weeks and counting. But in both cases Pentax (or possibly the dealer) took care of the packaging, shipping costs, etc."


another:

"There is no Pentax professional service in Canada, at least, and hasn't been since the time I bought my first 645D. When my shutter went down the first time I dug for any official way from Pentax to keep shooting the project I was doing in Arizona at the time, and there was nothing. I limped along to finish the shoot. When I got back to Calgary, I sent the camera in to be fixed under warranty (10 weeks) and bought a 2nd 645D so I would be less likely to be caught in that situation again. I guess that's what you could call the self-support program."

Yes, I am sure camera failures are rare with the Pentax bodies and like most here know most people post problems with gear on internet forums not positive experiences so you will se a LOT of issues with gear posted even though that probably represents the vast minority of actual user experiences BUT the dealings with Pentax service seems to be commonplace and if you do find yourself in the situation that you would require service you will have to deal with it. Something to consider when purchasing equipment.

I hope Pentax changes this.


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