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KevinA

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Video back?
« on: April 02, 2014, 06:53:41 am »

We had the 5D which started the DSLR video revolution. I wonder if we will ever see a MF back capable of video, if it did it with the full format available and not a crop to 35mm I could see it having some mileage. I don't have a use for one, I suspect others would be all over it. With the first cmos mf available now, I'm sure it's on someones to do list.
 I'm trying to think of any advantages it might have other than the obvious over available gear, any need for video on a tech camera?
 Red sought of comes at this from the video direction. Just thinking out loud.
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Doug Peterson

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Re: Video back?
« Reply #1 on: April 02, 2014, 09:30:25 am »

Notably it was the 5D Mark II, not the original 5D which sparked this revolution.

Video is already in the IQ250 as shown in our IQ250 Merry Go Round Live View Demo. But there is a large gap in ecosystem (storage/bodies/lenses/firmware/software) between showing live video feeds, and recording them in a high-quality, industry-standards compliant, useful for production way.

gazwas

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Re: Video back?
« Reply #2 on: April 02, 2014, 09:37:54 am »

On the face of it it would probably be a nice feature to have as long as the MF manufacturers can beaf up the backs internal processing power by a huge magnitude to allow some serious pixel binning even for 4K video over the full surface area of the chip at 24fps plus.

However as a serious motion capture product, I see the biggest hurdle being what on earth you'd attach it to (considering the £$€ investment) that would facilitate all the inputs/outputs/accessories needed to shoot UHQ video with it.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2014, 09:40:32 am by gazwas »
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Joe Towner

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Re: Video back?
« Reply #3 on: April 02, 2014, 11:57:23 am »

Why go to all the trouble to build a rig around a MFD back when you can do 4K in a Micro 4/3rds setup, or with EF or PL gear all the way.  Even if they were to do a fat pixel back or do a sensor+ type video mode, I don't see a cost advantage against a Red or Arri setup.  The 5D mkII ran over everything based on the cost, and the ability to leverage existing lenses.
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KevinA

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Re: Video back?
« Reply #4 on: April 02, 2014, 12:38:50 pm »

A Phaseone camera shooting video would make use of existing lenses. If the back just provided the signal then maybe a plugin device to capture/process the video. A GH might shoot 4k, but like everything there is 4k and there is 4k.
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Kevin.

MrSmith

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Re: Video back?
« Reply #5 on: April 02, 2014, 01:55:29 pm »

What is the point? Video cameras in the same price range and cheaper have superior dynamic range and data handling and a huge range of fast lenses that don't breathe and parfocal zooms.
The glacial rates of camera development are not exactly encouraging either.
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WhiteWolf09

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Re: Video back?
« Reply #6 on: April 05, 2014, 02:10:36 pm »

It's the IMAX look many people are after. Both RED and ARRI will release a 6K 645 sensor in a few years.
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bcooter

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Re: Video back?
« Reply #7 on: April 05, 2014, 05:59:39 pm »

Imax is a small market, though that probably won't stop RED and I love their cameras, but RED doesn't really spend much time listening, though they have gotten better.

In regards to a larger frame size, I don't know where anyone is going to get the cinema lenses, but that's probably another issue.

I think RED needs more refinement.    The fact that don't have an easy proress solution, is one example and the fact they dropped their lens line, which I tested and bought and found to be as good as anything we tried, at a much better price.

I was told their lenses were made by Cooke, so maybe that's why they stopped selling them, but my RED primes are beautiful.

Honestly 2k, 4k, in the higher end cameras I don't see any difference, as motion is much different than stills.  For the smaller cameras you see a difference, but the smaller camera have a smooth look like noise reduced stills, where the RED and Arri have a more film like look, the RED close to Kodak Vision.

Red also could drop the fanboyism on their website.    It's incredibly difficult to find any real information without wading through the terms, Canon killer, Arri Killer, Film Killer.   Nobody cares about that, they just care about usability, costs and post workflow.

Personally I'd upgrade my Scarlet to a Epic Dragon, except for the new red rocket card.  I've already spend $12,000 on the older RR cards and positively refuse to spend another $6,5000 just to get to proress.

They should open the processing up to Sonnet or some other lower cost card  and find a way to make them more stable, which becomes difficult given the new Mac Pro with thunderbolt doesn't allow an 8x lane through a separate box and RED requires an 8X lane.

Now given that I love my R1's, wish RED had continued development on that form factor because it's a proper movie camera and doesn't require modules to make it work.

I bought two, at first because I was worried about the rumors I heard of RED reliability, later for two and three cam shoots, though shooting twice around the world, I've only had one RED file corrupt and that was because of an operator knocking a v lock off the camera.

And the conditions I've worked from the Winter in Moscow the summer of Thailand, I can't think of more difficult extremes.

But Imax, ok I guess, though I've viewed 4k downsampled to 2k and there isn't that wow factor in look, not with motion.

In fact traveling from London to LA and back when we go to a movie in London whether it be the Odeon in Leicester Sq., or a smaller art theatre, the is a big difference in quality.

The screens at the Odeon, compared to LA are small or smaller, but the depth of color and the quality of production is at least 40% higher.    I think the Odeon has their own proprietary projection system, but regardless the imagery is beautiful.

RED, whether anyone in the film industry appreciates it or not, built a robust, full featured camera that is not only useable for anything Hollywood demands, but is affordable for the small production company.

Just give me instant proress conversion and I'll be fine.

IMO

P.S.   In regards to a phase or Hasselblad digital cinema back . . . I'd forget about that.
BC

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BJL

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Re: Video back? 36x24mm digital should match IMAX film format
« Reply #8 on: April 05, 2014, 06:37:45 pm »

With still cameras, today's digital sensors in a given format can match the resolution, low-light handling and real-world dynamic range of color film in format of at least twice the (linear) size, maybe more: even 1" format sensor seems to be matching 36x24mm format color film in those respects. So I expect that the IMAX film format of about 70x49mm will be comfortably matched in IQ by 36x24mm sensors, which can use the large and increasing array of "movie lenses" for that format ... and these lenses should also give shallow enough DOF when needed.  In fact, I would not bet against the RED Dragon's 31x16mm format being enough to match IMAX quality as sensors evolve.
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eronald

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Re: Video back?
« Reply #9 on: April 06, 2014, 01:44:00 am »

J,

You might own a 5K movie camera you didn't realize you had :)

http://gizmodo.com/5936270/the-canon-1dx-makes-one-hell-of-a-5k-movie-camera/all

Edmund

Imax is a small market, though that probably won't stop RED and I love their cameras, but RED doesn't really spend much time listening, though they have gotten better.

In regards to a larger frame size, I don't know where anyone is going to get the cinema lenses, but that's probably another issue.

I think RED needs more refinement.    The fact that don't have an easy proress solution, is one example and the fact they dropped their lens line, which I tested and bought and found to be as good as anything we tried, at a much better price.

I was told their lenses were made by Cooke, so maybe that's why they stopped selling them, but my RED primes are beautiful.

Honestly 2k, 4k, in the higher end cameras I don't see any difference, as motion is much different than stills.  For the smaller cameras you see a difference, but the smaller camera have a smooth look like noise reduced stills, where the RED and Arri have a more film like look, the RED close to Kodak Vision.

Red also could drop the fanboyism on their website.    It's incredibly difficult to find any real information without wading through the terms, Canon killer, Arri Killer, Film Killer.   Nobody cares about that, they just care about usability, costs and post workflow.

Personally I'd upgrade my Scarlet to a Epic Dragon, except for the new red rocket card.  I've already spend $12,000 on the older RR cards and positively refuse to spend another $6,5000 just to get to proress.

They should open the processing up to Sonnet or some other lower cost card  and find a way to make them more stable, which becomes difficult given the new Mac Pro with thunderbolt doesn't allow an 8x lane through a separate box and RED requires an 8X lane.

Now given that I love my R1's, wish RED had continued development on that form factor because it's a proper movie camera and doesn't require modules to make it work.

I bought two, at first because I was worried about the rumors I heard of RED reliability, later for two and three cam shoots, though shooting twice around the world, I've only had one RED file corrupt and that was because of an operator knocking a v lock off the camera.

And the conditions I've worked from the Winter in Moscow the summer of Thailand, I can't think of more difficult extremes.

But Imax, ok I guess, though I've viewed 4k downsampled to 2k and there isn't that wow factor in look, not with motion.

In fact traveling from London to LA and back when we go to a movie in London whether it be the Odeon in Leicester Sq., or a smaller art theatre, the is a big difference in quality.

The screens at the Odeon, compared to LA are small or smaller, but the depth of color and the quality of production is at least 40% higher.    I think the Odeon has their own proprietary projection system, but regardless the imagery is beautiful.

RED, whether anyone in the film industry appreciates it or not, built a robust, full featured camera that is not only useable for anything Hollywood demands, but is affordable for the small production company.

Just give me instant proress conversion and I'll be fine.

IMO

P.S.   In regards to a phase or Hasselblad digital cinema back . . . I'd forget about that.
BC


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KevinA

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Re: Video back?
« Reply #10 on: April 17, 2014, 03:49:27 am »

Looks like Pentax think it's worthwhile even if it's only them and me. I can't see why it's any less an asset on MF than it is on a 35mm predominately stills camera.
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Kevin.

BJL

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Pentax 645Z: 30p and 60i HD video, but not 4K or UHD
« Reply #11 on: April 17, 2014, 11:21:08 am »

Looks like Pentax think it's worthwhile even if it's only them and me. I can't see why it's any less an asset on MF than it is on a 35mm predominately stills camera.
Offering 1920x1080p30 video as in the Pentax 645Z should be a no-brainer in a camera that has real live view(*) anyway, at least for a company like Pentax that already has the firmware for video worked out in its DSLR line.  (Aside: this is yet another little technology sharing point where Pentax has an advantage over the far smaller and more specialized medium format camera and back makers.)

But the 645Z does not have 4K (4096×2160) or Ultra HD (3840×2160) video, and I can see why: that would require readout and data processing rates far beyond the needs of still photography, and so would probably require significant and costly changes in the sensor design and in related hardware.


(*) Not the ultra-slow frame-rate tethered live view of some CCD backs.
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Chris Barrett

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Re: Video back?
« Reply #12 on: April 18, 2014, 08:45:32 pm »

An engineer from Phase emailed me a while back asking if I'd like to see a medium format back that shot motion (though likely at HD).  I didn't really see the point.  You can get smaller cameras with faster lenses that shoot video already.  Sure, some think it's convenient to have it all on one platform.  Personally I like having the cameras separate.  If I'm shooting both formats, I'll leave my Arca / P1 setup with my assistant lighting the scene while I'm maybe popping around grabbing motion with the RED.

Cooter, I've had really good results using the new GPU based Debayer for R3Ds.  I've turned off my Rocket without really taking a performance hit.  Have you tried that?  I have a badass new Windows box shipping on monday that will sport a couple GTX 780's and I may not bother putting the Rocket in it... so I'm not too sure about moving up to Rocket-X with my Dragon upgrade.

Man, I've been strictly on Macs for the last 20 years...  gonna be strange working on Windows.
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