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Author Topic: Panel saw to cut Dibond?  (Read 7636 times)

bill t.

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Panel saw to cut Dibond?
« on: March 31, 2014, 06:26:52 pm »

Anybody have opinions on a good panel saw for making clean cuts in 3mm Dibond?

I'm looking for one that handles easily and quickly and preferably solo when making 8 foot long rip cuts, in addition to the usual 48" cross cuts.  Those 8 foot rips require rotating the saw head 90 degrees pretty often, would be a PITA if that were hard to do.  Here's a video for all you panel-saw newbies.

A lot of choices out there over a wide price range.  Looks like most are optimized for thick material around 3/4".  Makes me wonder if some of those are not the best choice for thin stock like ACM.

I see Trax has a manual cutter adapter sort of like a wall mounted media cutter for framing.  Probably a very low sawdust tool, but I like the super clean, super square saw blade cuts I've been getting from a commercial supplier.  The panels I've seen cut with a media cutter seem to have rounded edges and crushed corners, which I am going to guess is not optimal for flush mounted prints.  And I want super crisp looking edges.

Anyway, would appreciate your insights!  THX.  Gotta move fast on this.
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dgberg

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Re: Panel saw to cut Dibond?
« Reply #1 on: March 31, 2014, 07:25:36 pm »

I had the Streibig Compact in my shop for about 10 years and it was as good as it gets although pretty expensive and needs a 10 ft. ceiling.
Another good one is the Saftey Speed Cut.
If space and cost are a limiting factor the Festool 55 with a 4 ft. and 8 ft. track is supper fast if you have a large workbench to lay your panel on

Could not get the link to work but this is what you want to type in. Festool TS 55 Track Saw
We use ours for a ton of stuff. Especially good for breaking down a 4x8' sheet into pano sizes.

Opps I see that I suggested this same thing (Festool 55) back in 2012.


« Last Edit: March 31, 2014, 07:39:10 pm by Dan Berg »
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bill t.

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Re: Panel saw to cut Dibond?
« Reply #2 on: March 31, 2014, 10:37:28 pm »

Thanks Dan!

Yeah, I like the Festool.  I looked at some of the videos and it seems like a great tool, and it sort of parallels what I'm doing now to cut Gator.  Been going back and forth between that and a panel saw.  I could probably get away with the Festool if I built a cutting table in my long, narrow "dusty" room at an angle of around 30 degrees from flat, but I think routinely making a lot of cuts at a steep angle might not be a good idea safety-wise, and I could only stand on one of the long sides.  Videos like this one seem to show very little sawdust being thrown around by the Festool, and the guy's technique of using just a few 3 x 48 spacers under the cuts would limit sawdust spread on the backside.  Have to think about it.

My ideal is to separate the dusty operations from everything else, and a panel-saw in the existing room with the miter saw and dust collector seems like the optimal solution, but not the cheapest one.  OTOH, the dusty room will infect the panels with dust.  So what would be worse, dust brought in on the panels (and on my shoes and clothes), or well controlled dust created in the clean area?

Funny you should mention the 2012 thread.  The job that was hanging in the wings then finally came through!  Lots and lots of ~30 x 90's.  Kinda scary, though, this will be my first use of adhesive mounting in several years, with basically no time for testing.
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smjphoto

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Re: Panel saw to cut Dibond?
« Reply #3 on: March 31, 2014, 11:29:03 pm »

Hi Bill, I have a trax machine, but i don't use dibond. (I have it for woodworking). Changing from rip to crosscut isn't too big a deal, but handling 8' stock and pushing it through requires a lot of space. Its a lot harder to get super accurate rips than crosscuts because the material is being moved during the cut. you need a solid set up with out feed and in feed rollers at least 6-8' in each direction.
The  Streibig is in a different class. They are awesome when properly set up. They are available used at much better prices than new ( cabinet shops go out of business almost as often as frame shops) but must be properly setup and tuned or "garbage in= garbage out". They take up less space as the carriage (saw ) moves left/ right or up/down while the material stays clamped in place.

As the  Streibig is common at decent cabinet shops, you might see if you can find one who will either cut material for you or let you try out. I bet you could find someone who would give you access to their saw for a reasonable fee. You can cut a lot of material in a short amount of time, and you wouldn't have to worry about finding and setting up your own while under a time crunch…. just a thought.
Stuart
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dgberg

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Re: Panel saw to cut Dibond?
« Reply #4 on: April 01, 2014, 06:59:51 am »

Thanks Dan!

Yeah, I like the Festool.  I looked at some of the videos and it seems like a great tool, and it sort of parallels what I'm doing now to cut Gator.  Been going back and forth between that and a panel saw.  I could probably get away with the Festool if I built a cutting table in my long, narrow "dusty" room at an angle of around 30 degrees from flat, but I think routinely making a lot of cuts at a steep angle might not be a good idea safety-wise, and I could only stand on one of the long sides.  Videos like this one seem to show very little sawdust being thrown around by the Festool, and the guy's technique of using just a few 3 x 48 spacers under the cuts would limit sawdust spread on the backside.  Have to think about it.

My ideal is to separate the dusty operations from everything else, and a panel-saw in the existing room with the miter saw and dust collector seems like the optimal solution, but not the cheapest one.  OTOH, the dusty room will infect the panels with dust.  So what would be worse, dust brought in on the panels (and on my shoes and clothes), or well controlled dust created in the clean area?

Funny you should mention the 2012 thread.  The job that was hanging in the wings then finally came through!  Lots and lots of ~30 x 90's.  Kinda scary, though, this will be my first use of adhesive mounting in several years, with basically no time for testing.

About the testing.
I have had some trouble with edges coming up a little when mounting canvas to Dibond with Seals Print Mount Ultra.
The canvas seems to be shrinking just a little maybe 1/32". It lifts away from the dibond around the edges which looks like crap. This is on Dibond standouts so the edges are showing.
Am now testing canvas on Dibond with Miracle Muck and so far so good. I take my orbital sander and scuff the dibond surface pretty good first and that seems to help.
 Print Mount Ultra applied via my laminator  seems to work pretty good on Multiply. Although any canvas mount with the edge showing is a risk.
 Dark print with white canvas edges showing after the trim can look pretty yucky. Trying to mask that white edge with markers in my opinion makes it look even worse.
Still my favorite is canvas on gatorboard with MM and and put a nice frame around it. Not telling you anything here.

I have gone to great lengths to keep all my dust in my woodshop away from the printing and mounting studio.
After cutting Dibond or Gator on my sliding tablesaw I blow the pieces off with the air gun.
I then take a tack cloth and wipe each one down before taking them into the studio.
Lastly right before mounting I take a new clean tack cloth and wipe the substrate one more time just to make sure it is sterile.
All a pain in the you know what but it virtually eliminates any foreign objects.

Justan

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framah

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Re: Panel saw to cut Dibond?
« Reply #6 on: April 01, 2014, 09:55:18 am »

Bill.. I have a Fletcher 3100 wall cutter in my shop and I can cut Dibond with it just fine.
There is a cutter head that is made for cutting thin panels like Dibond and thin luan.

It has 2 cutter wheels that run against each other and has a channel for the panel to go thru. I have cut Dibond on it and tho you do have to push on it, it will cut it. It Also leaves the edge facing you slightly rolled so there is no burr or sharp edge.

This wall cutter also cuts glass, matboard and foam core. (different cutting heads)
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plui

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Re: Panel saw to cut Dibond?
« Reply #7 on: April 01, 2014, 12:05:46 pm »


I haven't done this myself with larger pieces, but have had the guys at the local sign shop cut the 8 ft cuts with a Foster Keencut Steeltrak. No crushed or even bent edges.

 > And I want super crisp looking edges.

I suppose the fastest way to get the cleanest edge is to mount the print onto the dibond first and then cut it all down to size, maybe with a router on a track ie festool. Does this sound correct? Otherwise you end up having to flip the mounted print and hand trim the edges of the print.
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bill t.

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Re: Panel saw to cut Dibond?
« Reply #8 on: April 02, 2014, 12:24:54 am »

Thanks everybody for the input!  Nothing like some alternate perspectives to clear out the cobwebs.

As much as it goes against my do-everything inclinations, I have decided to farm out the panel cutting.

A few phone calls revealed that there's a machine shop very close to my AluPanel supplier (Denco Sales), and I can basically order order panels and have them cut to highly accurate sizes with a single phone call.  A little more expensive than doing it myself, but cheaper than hiring an assistant.  For less money the AluPanel supplier will shear pieces to "approximate size", but with slightly rounded edges which I fear might undermine the adhesive integrity along those edges, so I'm gonna pay the extra for super clean cuts, at least on this job.

Would have been fun to pick up some new equipment.  But one must learn to keep an eye on the desired end point without getting hung up in the joi de tools.  I'm betting the "farming out" paradigm will increase my overall productivity and lead to a prettier bottom line.  Theoretically.

Hey Dan, have you mounted any art papers like BC Pura or Epson Cold or Hot Press onto ACM?  I wonder if those will have less tendency to pull back from the corners than canvas.  I just today put some test pieces of Pura on ACM in the window, using an 8 year old roll of Drytac SureTac.  Pretty aggressive stuff, if I try to pick up the edges with a fingernail or knife all I get is paper.  I'm wondering which way I should go with the adhesives, stronger or weaker.  And I wonder if thicker adhesive might have better shear properties as the ACM expands and contracts, maybe 2-layer adhesives are better in that respect, dunno.  Anyway, I'm gonna order couple rolls of adhesive tomorrow for some quick tests.  On the test piece I sealed the sides of the paper and also the black stuff with some thick acrylic varnish, will see if those edges hold up any better than the bare ones.  The data sheets on Dibond specify the amount of expansion that be expected, if I work the numbers around I will get about 1mm of expansion over a 40F temperature rise, for a 90" wide panel.  Might be a major source of corner pull-back.  That's not actually too bad though, some of the frame moulding I use can expand 2 or 3mm for the same temperature rise and size.

Way back when I did a lot of experiments with canvas Mucked to white surfaced ACM.  As I'm sure you know, I could get a bond, but it wasn't very hard to peel off the canvas with the Muck perfectly attached to it.  Didn't try sanding, that may be the trick.

FWIW, I was able to get a really good bond between the canvas print with the dried muck layer and some museum board in a hot press!  Dried Muck is basically the same adhesive as used on drymount tissue.  Or to look at it another way, Muck is liquid drymounting.  The mind boggles.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2014, 12:29:36 am by bill t. »
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dgberg

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Re: Panel saw to cut Dibond?
« Reply #9 on: April 02, 2014, 06:48:18 am »

Bill,
Have worked with quite a few papers although none you mention.
I spray all canvas and use Seal Print Guard (Hot)or Print Shield (Cold) laminates over the papers.
My best results are with Hahnemuhle FA Baryta with the semi gloss Print Guard Lustre laminate. Hot roll machine required.
It is an absolutly gorgeous finish and tough as nails. 
I need to try one on Dibond,hang it in a corner and see what it looks like in 6 months. I am applying most of these prints to 5/8" multiply with Print Mount Ultra.

jschone

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Re: Panel saw to cut Dibond?
« Reply #10 on: April 02, 2014, 09:05:49 am »

Keencut Excalibur 5000

Clean cut and no dust
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framah

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Re: Panel saw to cut Dibond?
« Reply #11 on: April 02, 2014, 10:27:48 am »

Bill...

Have a look at Kooltack competition plate. It already has the adhesive on it activates at 160-170  @ 3 minutes.
It's actually Dibond with a heat activated adhesive on it.

http://www.kooltack.com/our-products/kool-tack/item/19-kool-tack-competition-plate
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