Pages: [1] 2   Go Down

Author Topic: The unbearable sharpness of crop frame  (Read 3898 times)

eronald

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6642
    • My gallery on Instagram
The unbearable sharpness of crop frame
« on: March 30, 2014, 10:30:07 am »

Sometimes, the combination of greater DOF and shaprness wows - just look at these incredible cat images from the new Samsung Mini (scroll down).

BTW, I kind of like the images from this camera - professional use for closeups, anyone?

Color from Korean technology is usually closer to European tastes than anything coming from their beloved Japanese friends.

Edmund
« Last Edit: March 30, 2014, 11:29:11 am by eronald »
Logged
If you appreciate my blog posts help me by following on https://instagram.com/edmundronald

BobDavid

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3307
Re: The unbearable sharpness of crop frame
« Reply #1 on: March 30, 2014, 11:00:05 am »

Historically speaking, not so beloved friends...

I have to agree, the color and sharpness is nothing short of amazing.
Logged

eronald

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6642
    • My gallery on Instagram
Re: The unbearable sharpness of crop frame
« Reply #2 on: March 30, 2014, 11:34:57 am »

Historically speaking, not so beloved friends...

I have to agree, the color and sharpness is nothing short of amazing.

It's rare to see such good looking images as a test.

They are sharply detailed, not oversharpened, the OOF is good, nothing like the harsh background of some compacts - this is not an accident. Great care in the optical design and a circular aperture has obviously gone into this lens, the color indicates a fairly good CFA. I think Samsung is playing catchup with Panasonic's GM1, and although they obviously don't have the deep lens choices available to M4/3 these images show they have a pretty credible alternative to a high-end compact. Now if they could just integrate this into a phone ...me buy!

I find this very encouraging, because we can imagine all compacts will have this quality in a couple of years.

Edmund
« Last Edit: March 30, 2014, 11:43:33 am by eronald »
Logged
If you appreciate my blog posts help me by following on https://instagram.com/edmundronald

Telecaster

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3686
Re: The unbearable sharpness of crop frame
« Reply #3 on: March 30, 2014, 02:48:04 pm »

Yep, those pics look very good indeed. Lovely tonality. Pleasing OOF. Real detail, not oversharpened at all...just right. Spoilt for choice, we are.

-Dave-
Logged

Ken R

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 849
Re: The unbearable sharpness of crop frame
« Reply #4 on: March 30, 2014, 02:52:06 pm »

Sometimes, the combination of greater DOF and shaprness wows - just look at these incredible cat images from the new Samsung Mini (scroll down).

BTW, I kind of like the images from this camera - professional use for closeups, anyone?

Color from Korean technology is usually closer to European tastes than anything coming from their beloved Japanese friends.

Edmund

Small sensors are great for close-ups like the samples posted. The have pleasing depth of field characteristics up close and generally sharpness and color are good enough.

The same sensor might be junk for a wide angle expansive landscape though. Usually companies use close ups to showcase small sensors since other types of photography are MUCH more demanding and might show the shortcomings instead of the strengths of the product. Its not the first time.
Logged

Telecaster

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3686
Re: The unbearable sharpness of crop frame
« Reply #5 on: March 30, 2014, 02:57:33 pm »

Small sensors are great for close-ups like the samples posted. The have pleasing depth of field characteristics up close and generally sharpness and color are good enough.

The same sensor might be junk for a wide angle expansive landscape though. Usually companies use close ups to showcase small sensors since other types of photography are MUCH more demanding and might show the shortcomings instead of the strengths of the product. Its not the first time.

I wouldn't use such a camera for expansive landscapes anyway. Hammers are for nails. When doing embroidery you instead use needles.

-Dave-
Logged

eronald

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6642
    • My gallery on Instagram
Re: The unbearable sharpness of crop frame
« Reply #6 on: March 30, 2014, 03:02:52 pm »

I wouldn't use such a camera for expansive landscapes anyway. Hammers are for nails. When doing embroidery you instead use needles.

-Dave-

I'm going to be in line to buy a needle :)

Edmund
Logged
If you appreciate my blog posts help me by following on https://instagram.com/edmundronald

Telecaster

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3686
Re: The unbearable sharpness of crop frame
« Reply #7 on: March 30, 2014, 03:05:12 pm »

I'm going to be in line to buy a needle :)

I think I just might be in that same line.   ;)

-Dave-
Logged

MrSmith

  • Guest
Re: The unbearable sharpness of crop frame
« Reply #8 on: March 30, 2014, 03:17:40 pm »

The world is full of cat pictures, it's a shrewd move to target the cat loving photography demographic
Logged

eronald

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6642
    • My gallery on Instagram
Re: The unbearable sharpness of crop frame
« Reply #9 on: March 30, 2014, 03:36:11 pm »

The world is full of cat pictures, it's a shrewd move to target the cat loving photography demographic

I agree. Gopro for cat will be a big success for the "cat loving photography" demographic. A large untapped market :)

Guess on a sunday, a man has to write what he has to write.

Edmund
« Last Edit: March 30, 2014, 03:42:42 pm by eronald »
Logged
If you appreciate my blog posts help me by following on https://instagram.com/edmundronald

Ben Rubinstein

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1822
Re: The unbearable sharpness of crop frame
« Reply #10 on: March 30, 2014, 03:36:39 pm »

Don't like cats.
Logged

BJL

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6600
16mm (1") format lenses keeping up with 20MPs of sensor definition
« Reply #11 on: March 30, 2014, 04:24:03 pm »

I admit that my first thought was "if anyone starts posting cat photos, I'm leaving."

But the samples do serve a purpose, of adding to the evidence that:
(a) 20MP gives enough definition, or indeed more than enough, for a great many purposes,
(b) modern lens designs can keep up with that 20MP of definition even in a format as small as 16mm diagonal with 2.4 micron pixel pitch, and
(c) the previous item can be true even with a zoom lens from an upstart mass-producing consumer products conglomerate like Samsung, rather than only from century-old German makers dedicated to high end photography and optics.  (Google Translate tells me that these samples are mostly or entirely with the NX mini zoom lens, not with the 9mm wide-angle prime.)

The same sensor might be junk for a wide angle expansive landscape though.
I am curious as to what problems you anticipate when this 16mm diagonal sensor is used for a landscape: it is not as if the massively blurry backgrounds or high speed performance beloved of the big-sensor, big-aperture enthusiasts are of much importance in landscape photography, or that a camera which gives good color accuracy in these samples is likely to change to giving poor color accuracy for landscapes.  If you are looking for a "yes but what about ..." way of diminishing the significance of these examples, why not try "... a black and a white cat fighting furiously in a mixture of bright light and deep shadows".
Logged

eronald

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6642
    • My gallery on Instagram
Re: The unbearable sharpness of crop frame
« Reply #12 on: March 30, 2014, 05:11:28 pm »


I do have a question however: If you flip up the screen and take a selfie, do you see yourself looking at yourself in the pupil highlights?

Edmund
« Last Edit: March 30, 2014, 06:25:41 pm by eronald »
Logged
If you appreciate my blog posts help me by following on https://instagram.com/edmundronald

Joe Towner

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1365
Re: The unbearable sharpness of crop frame
« Reply #13 on: March 30, 2014, 10:01:15 pm »

Edmund has been kidnapped by the Cat Industrial Complex. :D

They made a camera specifically for the segment of consumers they're targeting.  I expect they'll make a tidy profit from it, with new models that have a cat-nip scented accessory.

Logged
t: @PNWMF

eronald

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6642
    • My gallery on Instagram
Re: The unbearable sharpness of crop frame
« Reply #14 on: March 30, 2014, 10:18:06 pm »

Edmund has been kidnapped by the Cat Industrial Complex. :D

They made a camera specifically for the segment of consumers they're targeting.  I expect they'll make a tidy profit from it, with new models that have a cat-nip scented accessory.



The customers say the product is purrfect :)
Now that should have you looking for the groan smiley ...

Edmund
Logged
If you appreciate my blog posts help me by following on https://instagram.com/edmundronald

synn

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1235
    • My fine art portfolio
Re: The unbearable sharpness of crop frame
« Reply #15 on: March 30, 2014, 10:25:49 pm »

Really struggling to see how this is relevant in the medium format forum; but yeah. Horses for courses.
I have a Nikon V1 and the small sensor comes really handy for certain applications.

This is one of my favorite shots and it was made with the V1, wide open (Because of the low ambient light). The smaller sensor ensured some decent DoF.



There's a stock photographer with a popular blog who loves the 1" sensor size too. They definitely have a place in the photographic world.
Logged
my portfolio: www.sandeepmurali.com

eronald

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6642
    • My gallery on Instagram
Re: The unbearable sharpness of crop frame
« Reply #16 on: March 31, 2014, 12:43:32 am »


A wonderful image, Synn!

But actually, the topic was cat photos :)

Edmund

Really struggling to see how this is relevant in the medium format forum; but yeah. Horses for courses.
I have a Nikon V1 and the small sensor comes really handy for certain applications.

This is one of my favorite shots and it was made with the V1, wide open (Because of the low ambient light). The smaller sensor ensured some decent DoF.



There's a stock photographer with a popular blog who loves the 1" sensor size too. They definitely have a place in the photographic world.
Logged
If you appreciate my blog posts help me by following on https://instagram.com/edmundronald

torger

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3267
Re: The unbearable sharpness of crop frame
« Reply #17 on: March 31, 2014, 03:49:07 am »

I see noise reduction. Is it only me that is allergic to the the pastel digital noise reduction type of look? Otherwise the detail and sharpness is indeed quite good for such a small sensor with that resolution, and I appreciate the lack of color aliasing in the cat's hair. To be fair the noise reduction brownish pastel look is reduced when looking at the scaled down pictures, so it probably does look quite nice in real applications, but I don't think the tonality of the 100% crops is good.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2014, 03:56:07 am by torger »
Logged

eronald

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6642
    • My gallery on Instagram
Re: The unbearable sharpness of crop frame
« Reply #18 on: March 31, 2014, 09:29:43 am »

I see noise reduction. Is it only me that is allergic to the the pastel digital noise reduction type of look? Otherwise the detail and sharpness is indeed quite good for such a small sensor with that resolution, and I appreciate the lack of color aliasing in the cat's hair. To be fair the noise reduction brownish pastel look is reduced when looking at the scaled down pictures, so it probably does look quite nice in real applications, but I don't think the tonality of the 100% crops is good.

My friends tell me that CMOS implies noise reduction - I don't (yet) know whether they are right.

Interestingly, I was at a meeting of the phone camera guys, they did user tests and found that users actually prefer chroma noise to luminance noise -

Edmund
Logged
If you appreciate my blog posts help me by following on https://instagram.com/edmundronald

BJL

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6600
20MP is oversampling for most purposes, so some smoothing/NR seems harmless
« Reply #19 on: March 31, 2014, 10:54:26 am »

I see noise reduction. ...To be fair the noise reduction brownish pastel look is reduced when looking at the scaled down pictures, so it probably does look quite nice in real applications, but I don't think the tonality of the 100% crops is good.
If NR effects are only visible when carefully examining the image at excessive magnification like the roughly 125ppi of 100% on screen, then it is probably not a problem of any practical significance. It is a bit like worrying about being able to see film grain when examining a negative through a grain focuser in the dark-room.  As Erik keeps advocating, "oversampling" plus processing like some smoothing or averaging (such as NR) is probably the safest way to achieve a given final degree of detail while avoiding problems like aliasing.  In particular, with the inherent "per pixel" IQ limitations of a Bayer CFA camera, a sensor of 20MP or more might be the best starting point if the final output target is an RGB file of 10MP or "4K".

Maybe 50% pixels is the highest magnification that is really relevant to on-screen assessment of image quality, or otherwise viewing that 100% from 20" or more, to mimic close viewing of a prints at 200ppi or higher.
Logged
Pages: [1] 2   Go Up