Printing on Metal?

[dgberg]

There is a reason why the top metal print companies all use sublimation for their prints.  The results are superior.

If you're going to get into a business you owe it to yourself to do it the right way.

The very first method I read about was the booksmart blanks and using inkaid.  I discovered that from finding LL in my google searches and from what I read on here, its extremely difficult, time consuming and expensive to go down that path.  I didnt try it myself, but based on what I read up on these very forums, the inkaid option just doesnt cut it for professional metal prints.

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[bgphoto]

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[Scott Martin]

There is a reason why the top metal print companies all use sublimation for their prints.  The results are superior.

That may have been the case back when you did your tests but UV tech has come a long way just in the last two years. I wouldn't have considered UV for artwork 2+ years ago. Believe me, I work the top companies with start of the art equipment - did you follow the link I posted earlier? A $900,000 Vutek HS100Pro makes really nice prints on metal - gotta see it to believe it. And the Evo 33 DS makes the best sublimation prints I've seen as well. HPI has these printers side-by-side and I've calibrated them both and I like them both. When it comes to prints larger than 30x40 I like the stiff flat materials we can run though the UV machine.

I guess it's not fair to say one is better than the other. They each have a unique look to them. But most places use sublimation on metal because they can't afford the best UV printers out there. Very few people have seen top notch UV prints with super sharp 2 point type.

[brinked]

Scott what you say may very well be true.  I dont doubt the fact that a million dollar machine can produce the absolute best results, as it should.  The thing is, I dont think there are many companies that have the means to invest in a million dollar printer.

Even if you can afford a million dollar printer, that is only a part of the equation.  You have to factor in the price of the inks (I assume a million dollar printer is going to use mighty expensive inks) and the metal you use.  The most popular and by far best metal substrate is gloss white coated aluminum,  You will still have to pay a premium for a premium substrate.

Combine all of those things together and you will not be able to be competitive in the metal printing business.  You simply will not be able to offer prints at a reasonable enough cost to compete with all the other companies that offer high quality metal prints.

While I believe that there is always something better out there....right now that kind of cost and ongoing expense doesn't make sense in this market.

[huguito]

I have a hard time understanding this.

The most popular and by far best metal substrate is gloss white coated aluminum,  You will still have to pay a premium for a premium substrate.


If the surface to be printed is finish in white gloss, and therefore the color of the metal is not visible anymore, why does it make a difference if it is metal, or wood or any other kind of hard board?

[Scott Martin]

(I assume a million dollar printer is going to use mighty expensive inks) and the metal you use. 

No! UV Curable inks are several orders of magnitude more affordable than aqueous, latex, solvent and especially sublimation inks.

The most popular and by far best metal substrate is gloss white coated aluminum,  You will still have to pay a premium for a premium substrate.

It's not bad in bulk and there's a one sided version that shockingly affordable. 4x8 and 5x10 foot sheets only.

Combine all of those things together and you will not be able to be competitive in the metal printing business.

Actually, the insane speed and low cost of the ink is what makes UV Curable printing so competitive, when the volume is there to support it. You might instead ask how one can use expensive sublimation inks on a slow printer and compete?

[dgberg]

I have a hard time understanding this.

The most popular and by far best metal substrate is gloss white coated aluminum,  You will still have to pay a premium for a premium substrate.


If the surface to be printed is finish in white gloss, and therefore the color of the metal is not visible anymore, why does it make a difference if it is metal, or wood or any other kind of hard board?

To answer your question it doesn't except the white Chromaluxe metal beats the other clear aluminum coated products by a long shot. You can only buy certain products with the dye sub coating.
We are talking dye sub metal here.(I think.)  You can also buy Unisub wood panels coated with the same polyester white coating.
In my opinion the coated wood does not have the same look as the white metal. (Not as smooth.)
We also do Dye Sub Metals and the Chromaluxe clear metals are very nice with the right image but still do not have the pop that the white has.
Have you ever seen these?

[arobinson7547]

When talking about Inkjet [or UV Flatbed] direct to metal. Both will work.

With UV Vutek, the ink will sit on top of and cover the shine of reflective surfaces. Defeating the point.

But MOST importantly the Gamut of Sublimation trumps them all. And that is what I believe to be the Big Wow Factor of Sublimation printing.

Now if you add the smooth gloss white metal surface under that extreme gamut; that's a double WOW!

In a Grand Format Printing environment, it's the Gamut and Saturation of the sublimation prints that always gets the heads turning... Nothing else looks like it. All the others are LARGE, SUPER LARGE and Wonderful in all of their splendor. But the color range is so far exceeded with Sublimation, it stands out as unique over all others

[shadowblade]

When talking about Inkjet [or UV Flatbed] direct to metal. Both will work.

With UV Vutek, the ink will sit on top of and cover the shine of reflective surfaces. Defeating the point.

That's what UV-curable laminates are for. You can make them as glossy as you like.

But MOST importantly the Gamut of Sublimation trumps them all. And that is what I believe to be the Big Wow Factor of Sublimation printing.

Actually, the gamut of aqueous inkjet significantly exceeds that of dye-sub transfer to metal. If you don't believe me, print an image containing lots of red, green or blue on inkjet and on dye-sub, then compare them.

Dye-sub metal's big advantage is the Cibachrome-like smooth surface and ultra-high gloss, which allows for very deep blacks. But inkjet can print a greater gamut and, so long as you have a smooth surface to print on and a high-gloss laminate, can create an image with just as much impact.

[bgphoto]

I have to say that the gamut for sublimating on Chromaluxe brand metal is extremely good. What seems to make a tremendous amount of difference is the Profile used to create the transfer along with whether the company printing these panels uses a 4 or 8 ink process.

As far as UV printing, the barrier for entry is cost of the machine not the inks. If you purchase a million dollar machine and the manufacturer gives you the ink for free you still have a long hard road to pay for the equipment and start making a profit. On the other hand if they were to give you the machine and you had to pay for the inks, think how much that ink would cost! And you still have to laminate the product in order to get the extremely high gloss of Chromaluxe panels.

Ben

[Scott Martin]

I have to say that the gamut for sublimating on Chromaluxe brand metal is extremely good. What seems to make a tremendous amount of difference is the Profile used to create the transfer...

Yes, the calibration and profile is huge and the quality of the profiles out there varies.

As far as UV printing, the barrier for entry is cost of the machine not the inks. If you purchase a million dollar machine and the manufacturer gives you the ink for free you still have a long hard road to pay for the equipment and start making a profit.

If the volume is there you know UV is the way to maximize the profits. And if your buying a million dollar machine you're probably just upgrading from a $700K machine that was a nice upgrade from the $400K machine you had before that. If you're in this cycle you've been making big bucks for a long time, managing monthly payments and know how a single, super fast, high quality machine can save you a lot of real estate and hassle over having tons of slower printers and how having the latest greatest machine gives you a  quality edge over your competitors.

And you still have to laminate the product in order to get the extremely high gloss of Chromaluxe panels.

Yeah, the lamination is needed to get a decent DMax with UV. Chromaluxe is great. They are two different processes each with their own advantages and disadvantages. Chromalux is really nice in small to medium sizes and in a fine gallery context where the print will be cared for and you won't need to worry about surface scratching and the like. UV curable advantages become more present when you go really big (4x8 feet and larger) and/or present work in spaces where durability and extreme lastfastness are more of an issue. Touching a UV print and 'feeling' the image can be a really fun aspect to UV prints that people aren't accustomed to. That Chromaluxe/ Cibachome high gloss look sure can be nice!

[brinked]

Scott I dont know.  The very fact that the largest labs in America that could afford a multi million dollar machine all use sublimation tells me that sublimation is just the best way to do Metal Prints.

I mean look at BayPhoto.  They make a killing on metal prints.  There could easily afford any kind of equipment and what they offer are sublimated metal prints.

[Scott Martin]

I mean look at BayPhoto.  They make a killing on metal prints. 

I know! I've ordered a number of prints from BayPhoto and exhibited a number of Bay Photo prints in galleries. Their prints have flatness issues at 20x30 and larger sizes. And there are inconsistencies in smooth areas like skies that they admit is a weakness. Again, there are advantages and weaknesses to each process. I'm not saying one is better than another. I'm just saying that there's a world of possibilities beyond the common sublimation that so many here are familiar with.

[EddieM]

I wanted to join in on this talk.

I have a wall full of metal prints and made many of them myself.

I started making my own metal and wood prints back in 2009.
As a wedding and portrait photographer at the time i included a 11x14 metal print with each wedding package and then we would sell more after they got to see one of themselves in person.

After almost 15 years as a working photographer we sold the business and as part of moving my inks dried up in my back then Ricoh printer.
I have now got back into it and have a 13 inch Epson with Cobra ink that works great and i am about to buy a Epson 36 inch printer the T5000.

Metal prints i can say for sure they last and still look 100% like new from prints i have from 2009 and 2010. no fading no flaking or anything except i did bend one in moving.
I Printed my own up to 11x14 and i ordered out for larger sizes.
I have a few 16x20s, a 18x25 and a 24x36 and i have made and still have some on the wall square tiles in frames.

I used to love the glossy look of the metal prints but now i like the metal matte prints better i think the gloss is to much to shinny and the matte versions just look great with no extra shine.

I also printed T Shirts, towels and many other items.

I have been spending many days and hours doing testing on some new products i am working on and getting my colors right but i will be buying a RIP with my new system soon.

Why am i picking the T5000 printer
I have a 44 inch canon and i never print anything larger then 36 inch wide most of the time i print 24x36 prints using 24 inch paper so for the new printer for dye sub i can not see even using or needing a 44 inch wide printer.
So the T5000 is just right at 36 inch wide so i can gang print many small items when needed.

Price right now the T5000 is on sale for almost the same price of the T3000 24 inch printer so the T5000 is the better deal right now.

Also i would never want a 9890 as it uses a new pressure ink feed system so fitting it for a bulk ink system is much harder and harder to keep it running right any loss in pressure and it wont work right.

Print quality. The T5000 has 4 main colors but has a 5th extra photo black cart. You can load in a lighter dye sub black in that 5th area and using a rip make the printer print using the 5th color to be able to produce all the extra lighter brighter colors a 4 color system has problems with but with less cost vs a 6 or 8 color system.
The extra years of service plans cost less on the T5000 you can get 2 extra years for less then one year on the F series and using different inks you can save a lot.
In the end you could buy two T5000s for the price of one F series or replace a few print heads over time.

Dye sub ink i would stay away from Sawmill ink it is over priced and just not as good as other much less expensive brands.

The high price of dye sub inks and many things will end later this year when the patent runs out in Oct that Sawgrass has.
Soon after that we should expect to see a lot of new products come out all at a better price making dye sub items even current products i would expect to see a drop in price.

I have made some darn amazing looking Dye sub items over the years it is a fun thing to get into and customers love the end results..