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Author Topic: Lenses for models  (Read 9187 times)

Justinr

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Lenses for models
« on: March 28, 2014, 05:04:38 am »

Alas and alack the models I have in mind are scale models of aircraft, trucks etc and I could do with a lens that is going to give the best DoF on a FF Nikon. I was thinking that something like a 50mm Macro like this might fit the bill - http://www.sigmaphoto.com/product/50mm-f28-ex-dg-macro.

Any thoughts appreciated.

Btw, it also occurred to me that I could buy a reasonable P&S with an APS sensor to give the DoF for the same money but its for publication so I do need a good image quality.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2014, 05:07:34 am by Justinr »
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stamper

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Re: Lenses for models
« Reply #1 on: March 28, 2014, 05:11:12 am »

Personally I would buy a P&S. I have tried macro on a DSLR with a Tamron 90mm f/2.8 and struggled to get good results. I then tried a Canon G12 and was a lot happier. The small sensor meant better DOF. The trick is to not focus too close in a bid to fill the frame but further away and crop in post ..... assuming you have enough pixels left to give you a good print.

MrSmith

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Re: Lenses for models
« Reply #2 on: March 28, 2014, 07:05:16 am »

helicon focus will sort your DOF problems.
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Justinr

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Re: Lenses for models
« Reply #3 on: March 28, 2014, 08:41:01 am »

helicon focus will sort your DOF problems.

I'd considered focus stacking but the time to take the necessary images will be short on this job.  :(

I've since been experimenting with the Nikon 24-85 and the good lady's P&S and I think I can probably get away with the former as the items concerned are to a reasonably large scale, but decent close ups of detail may still elude me.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2014, 08:45:48 am by Justinr »
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Lenses for models
« Reply #4 on: March 29, 2014, 05:42:05 am »

Helicon Focus 6 is very fast on recent hardware. You can automate the DoF stacking job with tools such as camranger.

Cheers,
Bernard

Ellis Vener

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Re: Lenses for models
« Reply #5 on: April 01, 2014, 10:22:53 am »

As Bernard mentioned, Camranger does a great job of automating  the camera half of focus stacking  and as MrSmith wrote, Helicon Focus software  does a great job of the computational half.

http://www.camranger.com

http://www.heliconsoft.com/heliconsoft-products/helicon-focus/

When I went to the Helicon Soft site I saw that they have a program, helicon Remote, that can also automate the focus stepping function  and exposure bracketing function of the  CamRanger, but it does not run on iOS devices. http://www.heliconsoft.com/heliconsoft-products/helicon-remote/

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Justinr

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Re: Lenses for models
« Reply #6 on: April 03, 2014, 04:41:15 am »

Many thanks for the input gentlemen, it is appreciated.

I got the photos yesterday and was pleasantly relived with the results. These were taken with the standard Nikon 24-85 lens and bearing in mind that they were shot in the living room of a 'not as youthful as they were' couple and I had to take time to get the story for the article as well I'm reasonably happy with the results.

The first was fine DoF wise, the second was where I thought I would need focus stacking but didn't, while the third was where I thought I wouldn't need focus stacking but did!

To get some idea of scale the 'bolts' are from spectacle frames.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2014, 04:50:28 am by Justinr »
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StoneNYC

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Re: Lenses for models
« Reply #7 on: April 03, 2014, 08:42:51 am »

Personally in 35mm format, I use a very very old Canon 50 mm macro lens, it works beautifully, and I'm sure the newer Sigma version is probably just fine and a worthwhile purchase.

I didn't have time to fully read through all of the data so I don't know if it shoots 1:1 or not but even 1:2 would probably be good enough for most people.

The most important thing is understanding light and depth of field. At the distances you're working with, you're going to have to shoot at something like f/22 or smaller of an aperture, or you'll end up with a very shallow depth and potentially out of focus areas where you wanted there to be clarity. So make sure you have some good strobes or a good off-camera flash unit if you really want to like the subject well. Of course if you have a tripod and an understanding of how your camera works where you can use the mirror up function, you can get some long exposures that will be just as good if not better than handholding with flash, and then use natural light.
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Justinr

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Re: Lenses for models
« Reply #8 on: April 03, 2014, 02:48:12 pm »

Personally in 35mm format, I use a very very old Canon 50 mm macro lens, it works beautifully, and I'm sure the newer Sigma version is probably just fine and a worthwhile purchase.

I didn't have time to fully read through all of the data so I don't know if it shoots 1:1 or not but even 1:2 would probably be good enough for most people.

The most important thing is understanding light and depth of field. At the distances you're working with, you're going to have to shoot at something like f/22 or smaller of an aperture, or you'll end up with a very shallow depth and potentially out of focus areas where you wanted there to be clarity. So make sure you have some good strobes or a good off-camera flash unit if you really want to like the subject well. Of course if you have a tripod and an understanding of how your camera works where you can use the mirror up function, you can get some long exposures that will be just as good if not better than handholding with flash, and then use natural light.

I'm certainly going to have to hone my technique but I'm now not so sure that a macro lens is necessary for models of this scale. I did manage one sequence for focus stacking and the result is shown here.

« Last Edit: April 03, 2014, 05:10:20 pm by Justinr »
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StoneNYC

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Re: Lenses for models
« Reply #9 on: April 03, 2014, 06:45:33 pm »

I'm certainly going to have to hone my technique but I'm now not so sure that a macro lens is necessary for models of this scale. I did manage one sequence for focus stacking and the result is shown here.

Understood, somehow I could have sworn you mentioned wanting to take a closeup of the bolts on the miniature (by the way when the title says "model" I was thinking a fashion shoot).
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dwswager

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Re: Lenses for models
« Reply #10 on: November 24, 2014, 10:44:07 pm »

As Bernard mentioned, Camranger does a great job of automating  the camera half of focus stacking  and as MrSmith wrote, Helicon Focus software  does a great job of the computational half.

http://www.camranger.com

http://www.heliconsoft.com/heliconsoft-products/helicon-focus/

When I went to the Helicon Soft site I saw that they have a program, helicon Remote, that can also automate the focus stepping function  and exposure bracketing function of the  CamRanger, but it does not run on iOS devices. http://www.heliconsoft.com/heliconsoft-products/helicon-remote/


That has historically been an Apple issue.  Helicon Remote runs wired to the USB connector on the camera and they have versions of remote  on Windows, Mac and Android, but Iphone 30 pin connector could not act as a USB Host controller and while it can be done with the lightning dock, Apple doesn't support it.  I just bought a 2 pack of adapters from Micro USB to Female USB port for $5.99 to run Helicon Remote from my Galaxy Note II and Android tablet.
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LesPalenik

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Re: Lenses for models
« Reply #11 on: November 25, 2014, 04:37:38 am »

Does anybody here know, how Camranger with Helicon compares with Stackshot from Cognisys? Can Camranger control the lens focusing?
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Torbjörn Tapani

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Re: Lenses for models
« Reply #12 on: November 25, 2014, 04:54:57 am »

Does anybody here know, how Camranger with Helicon compares with Stackshot from Cognisys? Can Camranger control the lens focusing?


The Stackshot moves the camera, Camranger and Helicon Focus use the focus motors to do a focus stack. So you need to decide if you are better off moving the camera on a rail of some kind or using lens focusing, here: http://zerenesystems.com/cms/stacker/docs/troubleshooting/ringversusrail

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sniper

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Re: Lenses for models
« Reply #13 on: November 25, 2014, 07:26:46 am »

The old school method is to use camera movements for DoF when shooting small objects. The Scheimpflug principle.
If you can borrow or hire a Nikon 85mm PC-E give it a go and see if it works for you.


I was going to suggest this but Paul beat me to it.
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dwswager

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Re: Lenses for models
« Reply #14 on: November 25, 2014, 09:47:27 am »

The old school method is to use camera movements for DoF when shooting small objects. The Scheimpflug principle.
If you can borrow or hire a Nikon 85mm PC-E give it a go and see if it works for you.


There are still issues with getting the plane positioned properly and how much DOF you can achieve this way based on the magnification ratio and shooting conditions.  In studio, not really a problem, but on location?

This is one area were Focus Stacking CAN really work to an advantage over camera movements.  I was practicing last night shooting with Helicon Remote on my Phone.   Long pole in the tent for me is getting the A (Near Focus) and B (Far Focus) points set correctly.  Once done, the time to shoot the sequence is really dependent on the camera settings (shutter speed, shutter delay, etc).  Basically it goes pretty quickly.  What I'm saying is getting the camera setup correctly takes way longer than shooting the stack.

Another nice thing with focus stacking is let's say you shoot a big stack to get everything in focus. You can choose later to use only a smaller contiguous subgroup of the stack to build the image.  Hence, if you want to isolate a certain range and have some out of focus parts, that is still an option you can decide on leisurely in post.

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dwswager

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Re: Lenses for models
« Reply #15 on: November 25, 2014, 01:59:23 pm »


The first was fine DoF wise, the second was where I thought I would need focus stacking but didn't, while the third was where I thought I wouldn't need focus stacking but did!


The 2nd image looks like a Focus Stacking opportunity, but the 3rd is definitely one.  It is because of the reproduction ratio in the 3rd is so much higher that DoF takes a nose dive.  I probably would have shot the 2nd as a Stack as well depending on the camera/lens .  It would be a question of diffraction blur on a crop sensor camera versus shooting at some f/22 or something. 

This is where experience comes into play.  You have to decide if you have the time to stack and is it worth it to shoot say at f/5.6 or f/7.1 versus a single shot at say f/22 or higher.  There is no right answer.  I took an image of a pier at morning twilight where i used f/22 to get diffraction stars on the pier lights on purpose and the image is way sharper than I expected given the 3.9 micron pixels on the 24MP DX sensor D7100 I shot it with.  The fact that the D7100 does not have a OLPF helps.  It really is a poor man's D810 in a lot of ways.
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dwswager

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Re: Lenses for models
« Reply #16 on: November 25, 2014, 02:13:04 pm »

Alas and alack the models I have in mind are scale models of aircraft, trucks etc and I could do with a lens that is going to give the best DoF on a FF Nikon. I was thinking that something like a 50mm Macro like this might fit the bill - http://www.sigmaphoto.com/product/50mm-f28-ex-dg-macro.


Back on topic, the question requires more information.  Think about what magnification (reproduction ratios you want) and how much working distance you need and have available.  At decent magnification, a 50mm macro is going to smack dab on top of the article being shot and makes lighting an issue.  A 200mm macro on the other hand allows better working distance, but you might not have it available.  Looking at images 2 and 3, I would immediately think 2 different focal lengths for those 2 shots.

The 70-180mm Zoom Micro Nikkor was the most misunderstood lens until it went out of production.  Then it became something of a classic and sells more used than new.  I don't typically do macro 1:1, but use extension tubes and Nikon 5T and 6T diopters for close ups on the 70-200 f/2.8.  The zoom makes framing a lot easier when getting real close.
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BobShaw

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Re: Lenses for models
« Reply #17 on: December 02, 2014, 06:22:16 pm »

Get a tilt shift lens as others have suggested. In focus from your feet to infinity.
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dwswager

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Re: Lenses for models
« Reply #18 on: December 08, 2014, 03:33:22 pm »

Get a tilt shift lens as others have suggested. In focus from your feet to infinity.

T/S lenses are wonderful, but they are not the solution to every DoF problem.  At high magnification, no matter how you tilt and/or shift the plane of focus, it is still very thin.  Focus Stacking is also not the solution to every DoF problem either, especially with non static subjects.  They are both just tools.  Sometimes one tool is better than the other.  Sometime you can make one tool work, even if the other would be better.  The smart photographer, selects the tool that is best for the situation.  Barring that, he makes the most of the tools he has to work with.

I would advise the exact opposite for this static type shooting.  Since focus stacking has been made relatively easy both shooting it (Helicon Remote) and processing the stacks (Photoshop, Helicon Focus, Zerene Stacker, CombineZP, etc.) I would start there, and only when you figure out the types of shots where it is not a viable option, would I get a T/S lens.  At that point, you will understand what focal length and amount of tilt/shift you need and be in a position to make an informed choice.
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