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Author Topic: You have to give Phase One credit--IQ250 high iso samples on DT blog  (Read 3578 times)

Paul2660

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After taking a quick look, then downloading the actual file, I have to say, this test by Digital Transitions, side by side from iso 100 to 6400 is pretty impressive.  You can find the image here:

https://digitaltransitions.com/blog/dt-blog/iq250-iso-sweep?utm_source=DT+Eblast+List&utm_campaign=0fa3fac2f9-Introducing_the_new_IQ2501_14_2014&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_087048e488-0fa3fac2f9-99292565

I can't speak to all 35mm DSLR's, however this is far superior to my D800e at even 3200.  The file that DT has posted shows that the shadow area on the 6400 image is starting to fall apart, but the parts of the image that are in good light, are very good.  1600 and 3200 look very good.

It's sad that Phase currently is not offering a competitive upgrade/downgrade/whatever grade from the 260 to this back.  Seeing this comparison, I could easily part with 10MP to have the range this chip has.  Tech camera shifting is another issue, but that is something that needs to be tested more, and hopefully in an outdoor environment.   I would like to see more tests with the 40mm Rod, and the 60mm Schneider. 

Long term, it's clear Sony has quite a lead in chip technology.  If they are working with Phase One on a full frame that handles tech shifts that would be excellent, however I have to wonder if the next chip will come from Dalsa.  They don't have the same history with CMOS (at least in this market) so the question will be can they get the same amazing DR. 

Kudos to Phase One, this is quite a back. 

Paul Caldwell
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jerome_m

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I fail to be impressed. It is good, but not better than a D800 at 1600-3200. There is a hint of banding in the shades at 1600 and up. The noise reduction gives a strong watercolour effect. Even at iso 100, the shades are noisy.
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Doug Peterson

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Jerome,

Before you make any conclusions I suggest you compare a 30x40 print (or a 8x10 crop from a 30x40 inch file) made by a D800 and an IQ250 with your preferred processing and noise reduction settings.

PM me for matched raw files if you wish to do such a comparison.

Of course because the reason having good ISO1600/3200 on an IQ250 is important is NOT to "beat" a D800 in super low light (IQ would have no f/1.X lenses, no IS, can't focus on a black cat in a coal mine) but rather so that someone who wants to shoot medium format (for all the other pros/cons) need not be afraid to continue shooting with it when they hit ISO800.

As a side note, the JPGs were made with shadow recovery, highlight recovery, and exposure/contrast adjustments. Feel free to request the raws to make your own adjustments and analysis.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2014, 05:06:19 pm by Doug Peterson »
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jerome_m

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PM me for matched raw files if you wish to do such a comparison.

You mean you took the same picture with the IQ250 and a D800? Else, how are we supposed to compare "matched raw files"?

I any case, if that can please you, I would expect the IQ250 to be better than the D800 on prints. The technology is similar (Sony) and the sensor is almost twice as big so it should collect almost twice as much light. So it should be a bit less than 1 eV better. This is good, but not revolutionary and not enough to compensate for the absence of f/1.4 lenses.
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BernardLanguillier

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Impressive indeed. Hard to tell whether we need to congratulate Sony, Phase or both.

Nikon didn't get much of the credit for the D800 sensor, so my guess is that the award will go to Sony. ;)

We'll know more after the 645DII becomes available.

Cheers,
Bernard

synn

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You mean you took the same picture with the IQ250 and a D800? Else, how are we supposed to compare "matched raw files"?

I any case, if that can please you, I would expect the IQ250 to be better than the D800 on prints. The technology is similar (Sony) and the sensor is almost twice as big so it should collect almost twice as much light. So it should be a bit less than 1 eV better. This is good, but not revolutionary and not enough to compensate for the absence of f/1.4 lenses.

if Nikon concentrated a bit more in color accuracy instead of stupid high ISO, I would still be shooting a D800 as my primary cam.

I am sure most people phase is targeting with this back have similar preferences.
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eronald

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if Nikon concentrated a bit more in color accuracy instead of stupid high ISO, I would still be shooting a D800 as my primary cam.
How unfortunate then that the IQ250 is so close to the D800 that people have been reporting good results by using the IQ250 profiles for their D800 images in C1. Or maybe how unfortunate that you never figured out how to profile your camera, think of all the money you might have saved.

Quote
I am sure most people phase is targeting with this back have similar preferences.
And where do you get your certainty? You have been told who Phase is targeting?

Edmund
« Last Edit: March 19, 2014, 07:39:10 pm by eronald »
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eronald

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This is so logical that someone must find a reason to disagree :)

Most people here don't realize that with a CMOS sensor Sony is essentially defining the picture quality of the IQ250 from the beginning. And these are people who are actually using the IQ250 profile in C1 for their D800 :)

Edmund

The technology is similar (Sony) and the sensor is almost twice as big so it should collect almost twice as much light. So it should be a bit less than 1 eV better. This is good, but not revolutionary and not enough to compensate for the absence of f/1.4 lenses.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2014, 07:11:33 pm by eronald »
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Paul2660

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This is so logical that someone must find a reason to disagree :)

Most people here don't realize that with a CMOS sensor Sony is essentially defining the picture quality of the IQ250 from the beginning. And these are people who are actually using the IQ250 profile in C1 for their D800 :)

Edmund


I agree that a lot of it has to do with Sony. However it seems to me that Phase One has taken the technology the furthest.

Live View available on the back (which works well in low light or no light along with normal light)
Up to 1 hour exposures and more than likely quite a bit longer
Focus mask
Wifi
Excellent LCD ( best on any camera I have used or seen 35mm or MFD)

I am sure I missed others but these seem to stand out.

Paul C



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BJL

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how many photographers need ultra-thin f/1.4 in high definition format?
« Reply #9 on: March 19, 2014, 07:58:31 pm »

... I would expect the IQ250 to be better than the D800 on prints. The technology is similar (Sony) and the sensor is almost twice as big so it should collect almost twice as much light. ... This is ... not enough to compensate for the absence of f/1.4 lenses.
The lack of f/1.4 lenses is only an issue for those who want, or at least can tolerate, the extremely limited DOF that such apertures would give when a high definition(*) 40MP, 45x30mm image is viewed large enough for all that definition to be worthwhile. I suspect instead that a lot of potential users of the Leica S system have DOF needs that fall comfortably within the range offered by Leica S lenses, and for them the lack of f/1.4 lens is irrelevant (as it always has been in medium format).

(*) As the video industry knows, pixel counts relate to definition, not resolution which is more related to pixel size and "pixels per degree on the subject".
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eronald

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Re: how many photographers need ultra-thin f/1.4 in high definition format?
« Reply #10 on: March 19, 2014, 08:12:19 pm »

The lack of f/1.4 lenses is only an issue for those who want, or at least can tolerate, the extremely limited DOF that such apertures would give when a high definition(*) 40MP, 45x30mm image is viewed large enough for all that definition to be worthwhile. I suspect instead that a lot of potential users of the Leica S system have DOF needs that fall comfortably within the range offered by Leica S lenses, and for them the lack of f/1.4 lens is irrelevant (as it always has been in medium format).

(*) As the video industry knows, pixel counts relate to definition, not resolution which is more related to pixel size and "pixels per degree on the subject".

I agree.  It is well known to all Mamiya users that the Hasselblad 100/2.2 is a mediocre performer with hard sharpness, while the Contax Zeiss 80/2 is unusable wide open and suffers from particularly bad bokeh. I have to remember to throw away my horrible Hassy 110/2, no one will ever buy it for more than $10 if I ebay it. Definition - that is what I need in my next lens buy - luckily Apple is bringing out an interchangeable lens iPhone!

More seriously, I do wonder why Leica have not yet brought out a fast dreamy portrait lens for the S system - but I suspect it is coming soon; in the mean time those with good eyesight will probably use the Planar 110/2.

Edmund
« Last Edit: March 19, 2014, 08:22:35 pm by eronald »
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synn

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Re: You have to give Phase One credit--IQ250 high iso samples on DT blog
« Reply #11 on: March 19, 2014, 08:23:55 pm »

How unfortunate then that the IQ250 is so close to the D800 that people have been reporting good results by using the IQ250 profiles for their D800 images in C1. Or maybe how unfortunate that you never figured out how to profile your camera, think of all the money you might have saved?


I am the first person on this forum who reported that the D800 colors get better with the IQ 250 profiles. So dont enlighten me on this topic. It gets better, but nowhere as good as MF.

if you can do better, save us the speech and show us.

And where do you get your certainty? You have been told who Phase is targeting?

Edmund


I own and use a current Gen MF kit. You had a cup of tea with  a very old kit. You don't even use MF gear now, nor are you in the market for one.


I also own and use the almighty D800. You don't.
That makes me a better authority on this topic than you.

I agree.  It is well known to all Mamiya users that the Hasselblad 100/2.2 is a mediocre performer with hard sharpness, while the Contax Zeiss 80/2 is unusable wide open and suffers from particularly bad bokeh. I have to remember to throw away my horrible Hassy 110/2, no one will ever buy it for more than $10 if I ebay it. Definition - that is what I need in my next lens buy - luckily Apple is bringing out an interchangeable lens iPhone!


Maybe the 5 minutes you spent with the Mamiya system wasn't enough for you to realize that the fastest lens in the MF realm, an f/1.9, is a Mamiya.

I have had f/1.2 and f/1.4 lenses for my 35mm kits at various times and I can't think of too many serious shots I made with them wide open. I am sure there are fans of the "One eye in focus, everything else blurred" look and if that's what one shoots all the time -e.g. Every Steve Huff picture ever, 35mm (Or smaller) is the best bet. No one has ever contested that, AFAIK.

On the other hand, you can get the more or less the same "look" with MF with a longer lens without f/1.4 and without all the aberrations such fast lenses on 35mm format brings with them while wide open. So yeah, to me, such fast apertures are more about bragging rights than any serious usage.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2014, 09:24:07 pm by synn »
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eronald

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Re: You have to give Phase One credit--IQ250 high iso samples on DT blog
« Reply #12 on: March 20, 2014, 01:01:23 am »


So yeah, to me, such fast apertures are more about bragging rights than any serious usage.

Absolutely. Luckily for me I so like bragging; if I can buy those bragging rights for the price of a 1.2 lens, without any effort at technical proficiency or artistic inspiration, well, what a bargain!

Blurry shaken and faded OOF images are considered highly artistic in Europe these days - because they are obviously NOT made with a camera phone or even a "Lunar" compact :)

Anyway, to the unfortunate serfs of the stopped-down Phamiya,  I recommend liberation via the 110 Planar and a cheap adapter -  except to Synn, obviously - the Planar has a wonderful focus falloff, even better than my brand C 85/1.2 below, if I remember rightly).

I really like the way I get excuses to show images of the kid :) And before people protest, I would like to say that I often enjoy looking at other user's "dog test" images which somehow convey great emotion. Maybe it is not a misuse of art to seize and capture emotion rather than precise form? Should a picture show the heartbeat of the one holding the camera or the subject in front of the lens? Should one imprint a detailed image or just render the impression of a glance?  Ah well, these are questions that can bedevil even a mere user of 35mm equipment, with aging and well-pickled grey cells, fatigued by the perusal of equations.

Luckily, professionals such as Synn are supplied with paid models and thought-meisters in the form of ADs who charitably relieve them from the demands and obligations of emotional involvement, just as enemies and generals do soldiers the favor of freeing them from the pangs of a reflective conscience :)

Edmund
« Last Edit: March 20, 2014, 01:50:26 am by eronald »
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synn

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Re: You have to give Phase One credit--IQ250 high iso samples on DT blog
« Reply #13 on: March 20, 2014, 01:36:29 am »

Absolutely. Luckily for me I so like bragging; if I can buy those bragging rights for the price of a 1.2 lens, without any effort at technical proficiency or artistic inspiration, well, what a bargain!

Blurry shaken and faded OOF images are considered highly artistic in Europe these days - because they are obviously NOT made with a camera phone or even a "Lunar" compact :)

Anyway, to the unfortunate serfs of the stopped-down Phamiya,  I recommend liberation via the 110 Planar and a cheap adapter -  except to Synn, obviously - the Planar has a wonderful focus falloff, even better than my brand C 85/1.2 below, if I remember rightly).

I really like the way I get excuses to show images of the kid :) And before people protest, I would like to say that I often enjoy looking at other user's "dog test" images which somehow convey great emotion. Maybe it is not a misuse of art to seize and capture emotion rather than precise form? Should a picture show the heartbeat of the one holding the camera or the subject in front of the lens? Should one make a detailed image or just render the impression of a glance?  Ah well, these are questions that can bedevil even a mere user of 35mm equipment, with aging and well-pickled grey cells.  Luckily, professionals such as Synn are supplied with paid models and thought-meisters in the form of ADs who charitably relieve them from the demands and obligations of emotional involvement, just as enemies and generals do soldiers the favor of freeing them from the pangs of a reflective conscience :)

Edmund



I shoot more personal work than for ADs.

Nice job side stepping every single point I made, BTW. You should run for office.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2014, 01:49:14 am by synn »
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LKaven

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Re: You have to give Phase One credit--IQ250 high iso samples on DT blog
« Reply #14 on: March 20, 2014, 07:15:42 am »

\I really like the way I get excuses to show images of the kid :)

The kid is in a very weird color space, listed as "A-GenericFujiAstia100.icc", and embedded in the JPEG.  Looks ok in the thumbnail on my Firefox, but open it up and woah.

JohnBrew

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Re: You have to give Phase One credit--IQ250 high iso samples on DT blog
« Reply #15 on: March 20, 2014, 07:41:06 am »

I agree with Luke. What is going on with that image? And it was to demonstrate what? Sorta lost me on that one, Edmund.

eronald

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Re: You have to give Phase One credit--IQ250 high iso samples on DT blog
« Reply #16 on: March 20, 2014, 02:44:42 pm »

I agree with Luke. What is going on with that image? And it was to demonstrate what? Sorta lost me on that one, Edmund.

Apologies, I must have been even more confused than usual and forgot to do a colorspace conversion before posting what was anyway an unfinished version. Reposting something similar below. The fuzziness is intentional, I did a postcard print from the file and it looks decent printed -in my opinion.


Edmund
« Last Edit: March 20, 2014, 03:11:33 pm by eronald »
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