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Author Topic: MY MISTAKE! Heavy adj brush images: little help from new Macs  (Read 3704 times)

KarlGohl

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Edit:  Today I realized that I made a big mistake.  Please read the post I added to this thread today (March 27).

Original post:

I'm thinking of replacing my 6 year old Mac Pro (quad 2.66, 667Mhz RAM). I tried out the new Mac Pro and a retina Macbook Pro at an Apple store.  As a test case, I brought an image (RAW and .xmp files) with a LOT of adjustment brush usage.  My machine takes a little over 20 seconds to build a 1:1 Preview for this image (compared to ~5 seconds for an image from the same camera without any adjustment brush use).  The new Mac Pro (quad 3.7(turbo 3.9), 1866Mhz RAM) took only about 10% less time.   I was expecting it to take ~33% less time (if limiting factor is CPU speed) and hoping it would take ~60% less time (if limiting factor is RAM speed).  I can't think of a reason why the improvement was so small.  The new MP has more cache than my machine. There was plenty of free RAM during the tests.  The image files, catalog, and LR executable were on the new MP's SSD storage that should be several times faster than the hard drives on my machine.  The new MPs are supposed to have a very fast memory architecture.  The Geekbench3 64-bit Multicore score is 5272 for my machine, 14601 for the new MP I tested.

Anyone have any thoughts on this?  My assumption is that most of the time is spent rebuilding the adjustment brush mask (the .xmp file is ~1.5MB, almost all the contents are the "dabs" of the adjustment brush).  I assume this requires a lot of floating point calculation: does anyone know if the FP units in Intel CPUs haven't improved much over the last several generations?  I'd be interested in knowing how a 6 or 8 core new MP does (the Apple store only had a 4 core) -- anyone with one of these willing to try my testcase?

BTW: the 15" rMBP (quad I7, 1600Mhz RAM) was just a little slower than the new MP.   Both machines seemed significantly snappier than mine when in the Develop module (image updated faster after moving a slider).          

-- Karl
« Last Edit: March 27, 2014, 09:52:56 pm by KarlGohl »
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James R

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Re: Heavy adj brush images: little help from new Macs
« Reply #1 on: March 16, 2014, 07:46:35 pm »

I went over board and got the new MC Pro (trash can) Z0P8 Configuration:

• 3.5GHz 6-core with 12MB of L3 cache
• 16GB (4x4GB) of 1866MHz DDR3 ECC
• 512GB PCIe-based flash storage
• Dual AMD FirePro D500 GPUs with 3GB of GDDR5 VRAM each
• User's Guide (English)
• Accessory Kit

I don't anticipate any issues with the adj brush.  BTW, my 7 year old Mac Pro never had big issues until upgraded to Mavericks OS.  That upgrade is costing me big time. >:(
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KarlGohl

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Re: Heavy adj brush images: little help from new Macs
« Reply #2 on: March 17, 2014, 12:04:44 am »

<snip>

I don't anticipate any issues with the adj brush.  BTW, my 7 year old Mac Pro never had big issues until upgraded to Mavericks OS.  That upgrade is costing me big time. >:(

According to everymac.com, the earliest Mac Pro that can run Mavericks is the Mac Pro 3,1 model, introduced in early 2008 (6 years ago).  Did you mis-compute the age of your machine or did you somehow install Mavericks on a pre-3,1 model?
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James R

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Re: Heavy adj brush images: little help from new Macs
« Reply #3 on: March 17, 2014, 03:30:46 am »

According to everymac.com, the earliest Mac Pro that can run Mavericks is the Mac Pro 3,1 model, introduced in early 2008 (6 years ago).  Did you mis-compute the age of your machine or did you somehow install Mavericks on a pre-3,1 model?

Thought I bought it late in '07, but, you forced me to checked my receipt and it was July of '08.  So it is going on 6 yrs old. 
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Wayne Fox

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Re: Heavy adj brush images: little help from new Macs
« Reply #4 on: March 17, 2014, 03:34:16 pm »

I have the 6 core, with 64gb of ram.  I’ve seen significant improvement in most things over my 2010 decked out mac Pro. I don’t overly use the adjustment brush, just minor stuff then moving to photoshop.  But I’d be happy to give your files a test go to see what I get if you want.

Compared to my Retina Macbook pro the differences are pretty significant, although admittedly the speed of the attached storage has quite a bit to do with that.

wayne

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KarlGohl

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Re: Heavy adj brush images: little help from new Macs
« Reply #5 on: March 20, 2014, 08:35:13 pm »

Wayne

Sorry for the slow reply -- have been working on income taxes.  I would be very grateful to know the results for my testcase on your new machine (and anyone else's who has a new Mac Pro (or 15" quad I7 retina MacBook Pro, for that matter).

Here is a link to a Dropbox folder with my testcase files:
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/go8hmb8ld3sa1vn/6Fl3jwzvM2

To do the testcase:
- Download .arw and .xmp files to your machine
- import them to LR
- use Develop to confirm that the Tree file has adjustments, including a couple of adjustment brushes used to adjust everything other than the tree (i.e. did you get the adjustments from the .xmp?)
- in Grid, select the tree picture and delete the 1:1 Preview, if any.  (Library>Previews>Discard 1:1 previews.  Note: LR won't actually discard a 1:1 preview if its longer dimension isn't at least twice the number of pixels of the equivalent dimension of your standard previews, so you might have to reduce the size of your std previews temporarily.  The image is 6000 pixels wide, so this probably isn't required.)
- in Grid, select the tree picture and time how long it takes to build the 1:1 preview  (The first time sometimes takes longer for me, so do the delete/rebuild 2 or 3 times)

If you have the time, I'd appreciate the results on the same test on the Moss image -- this image has my more usual amount of adjustments.

Thanks in advance

Karl
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Wayne Fox

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Re: Heavy adj brush images: little help from new Macs
« Reply #6 on: March 21, 2014, 02:34:19 am »

I downloaded your files.  The name for the .xmp file for the adjustment brush test image do not match, so the .xmp didn't get pulled in when I imported.

Remedied that, and performed the tests you requested.

The "moss" file you mentioned which appeared to not have any local adjustments would render a 1:1 preview in about 2.5 seconds.  Probably the more useful test is moving from Library to Develop, as LR renders a new working preview when you do that.  so the test is moving to develop then zooming 1:1 while in develop.  The first step was pretty much instant, the second would depend a little on how quickly you did it ... if you waited a second or two then zooming to 1:1 was pretty much zoom then it becomes sharp.

The adjustment brush file does slow things down to a crawl.  It takes about 16 to 18 seconds to generate a 1:1 preview, and moving into develop takes about 5 or 6 seconds to generate the screen size preview.  Zooming 1:1 depends on how quickly you do it at this point, as LR is preparing the preview in the background.  If you do it immediately it takes about 15 seconds, if you wait that long then it becomes instant.

But move to the brush tool and start trying to work, you soon feel like slitting your wrists.  It appears whatever is going on doesn't thread very well.  I'm also not seeing LR use the virtual cores so about the max I would  get out of the CPU is 600% (where 1200% is the total possible with a 12 core machine).  Doing these tasks however rarely use even 6 cores, and only pushes a couple of them past 50%.  

So whether it could be better or not I do not know, and the question is does it really need to be better because this amount if intricate adjustment brush work isn't something LR really is built to do (at least so far).  Don't take this personally but I'm not sure why anyone would do this amount of masking with the adjustment brush, since you could do it in a fraction of the time with far more control in Photoshop.  I use the adjustment brush quite a bit, but nothing ever this complex, and I've never really had an issue where things slowed enough to make me feel the program was laggy.

I've heard Adobe is working to take advantage of the dual GPU's, perhaps they are also looking at ways to more effectively use multiple cores.  Probably easier said than done ... the challenge is threading out the tasks efficiently.

Interestingly, Capture One 7 seems to be pretty efficient, using all 12 cores (6 real and 6 virtual) pretty effectively, getting 900% cpu usage on some things.

edit:  After doing all of this, I checked the App Nap setting for LR, and found I hadn't disabled that.  (Get Info on the program file in the finder).  By preventing App nap, things improved quite a bit. Doing your test took only 11 to 12 seconds to generate the 1:1 when in Library, and I noticed that LR was using the cores much more effectively.  Before it would use mainly the real cores, and each core being used would be progressively used less, so by core 6 it was probably only using about 10%.  After disabling the app nap, it would use all 6 real cores almost the same and all the way to 70 or 80%,  and the virtual cores would kick in as well to 30 or 40%. Before selecting the adjustment brush tool before took what seemed forever before you could actually select the adjustment brush you wanted to edit, and making changes was very sluggish.  After disabling app nap while still a little sluggish, it was substantially better, and actually adding brush strokes to the mask was bearable.

If using Mavericks with any processor intensive application, disabling app nap is a good idea.  

My specs:

 Model Name:   Mac Pro
  Model Identifier:   MacPro6,1
  Processor Name:   6-Core Intel Xeon E5
  Processor Speed:   3.5 GHz
  Number of Processors:   1
  Total Number of Cores:   6
  L2 Cache (per Core):   256 KB
  L3 Cache:   12 MB
  Memory:   64 GB
« Last Edit: March 21, 2014, 01:57:24 pm by Wayne Fox »
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KarlGohl

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Re: SOLVED! Heavy adj brush images: little help from new Macs
« Reply #7 on: March 21, 2014, 06:54:01 pm »

Thank you Wayne!

I really appreciate your running my testcase and I'm thrilled that you found the solution.  

Sorry about the problem with the unmatching names between the raw file and the xmp.  I was in a hurry when I posted the testcase. Since I suggested confirming that the xmp's adjustments were applied, I must have subconsciously known that something was wrong.

Since I don't have a machine running Mavericks, I was only vaguely aware of App Nap.  Now that you've identified it as the problem, I remember reading about App Nap and making a mental note to try turning it off for LR when I get to Mavericks.  Obviously I forgot about it when I was experimenting at the Apple store.  (BTW: I just read a description of App Nap which says it throttles resources of non-foreground processes, so I'm surprised that it has this effect on LR since it was the full-screen foreground application when I ran my experiments.)

Of course you're completely correct that PS would have been a much better place to do the elaborate masking of my Tree image.  This was a case of a couple of swipes around the tree with a large brush making a nice improvement, so I did some more to fill in around the tree better, but then the big spaces within the tree stood out, so I did those, after which I've put in enough effort that would be wasted if I didn't do the smaller holes, ...   Ultimately, I realized I'd put in way more effort than the image deserved, but hey, I'm a retired guy doing his hobby, so no big loss.  The adjustments I make to my average image are nowhere near as complex as this one is.  I just chose this as a worst case test case because as a former UI developer, I know how hard it can be to measure interactive response.  It may be that very complex adjustment brush usage is the only case where App Nap has a big impact.  As I said in my original post, LR on the new Mac Pro and recent rMBP seemed significantly more responsive than my machine, but it still worried me that the Tree testcase didn't show anywhere near the improvement that you'd expect given the specs of my machine versus a current machine. I'm curious whether you've noticed any improvement in overall LR speed in your normal work now that you've turned App Nap off.  

Thanks for providing the specs of your machine.  Which GPUs do you have?  Since I don't do video or gaming, I'm thinking of going with the D300s to save a little money, especially if I go for 6 cores instead of 4.  

Again, many thanks!

Karl  

 
« Last Edit: March 24, 2014, 05:44:33 pm by KarlGohl »
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Wayne Fox

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Re: SOLVED! Heavy adj brush images: little help from new Macs
« Reply #8 on: March 23, 2014, 01:33:16 am »

I have the d500 gpu's in my machine.  I know PS leverages at least one of them, and I think Adobe is working to use both of them, so I decided it may be worthwhile in the future.

I'm really liking my setup, both speed, size, and efficiency.  Pretty cool to have my 3 raids sitting 10 feet away from me ... the MacPro is virtually silent and the raids are far enough away I cannot hear the drives or the fans.  I see OWC has introduced a new TB raid cabinet which you can buy empty, so I might buy a couple of those and move my drives from eSata cabinets to these new ones.
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KarlGohl

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MY MISTAKE!!!
« Reply #9 on: March 27, 2014, 09:50:41 pm »

Today I went back to the Apple store to confirm that Wayne's suggestion that disabling App Nap for LR might improve the speed at which a 4-core new Mac Pro could build the 1:1 Preview for my testcase image.  I was surprised that it made little difference on either that Mac Pro or on a quad I7 MacBook Pro.  They both took about 21 seconds plus or minus a second or two, about the same as when I originally tried, which I thought was only a second or two less faster than my 2007 4-core Mac Pro.  When I got home I decided to verify how long my machine takes.  That's when I realized that the image I had been using was a different virtual copy having a less complex adjustment brush mask.  The time for the image I tested at the store (and Wayne tested on his 6-core machine) on my machine is actually 46 seconds!  So the 21 seconds on the 4-core new Mac Pro and the 12 seconds on Wayne's 6-core new Mac Pro are about what you would expect given the processor and RAM speeds or the Geekbench scores of the three machines.  I apologize for my mistake (but I must admit that I'm happy that it led to me having a good understanding of the relative speeds of the MacBook Pro and 4-core and 6-core new Mac Pros for Lightroom).  Thanks again to Wayne for running my testcase on his machine.

- Karl
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