Please tell me I am not nuts... (Highlight and Shadow Sliders)

[SZRitter]

So, I had an eureka moment yesterday, and realized my entire concept of how the Highlight and Shadow sliders work are totally different than I thought. My original conception was that it kept everything in a nice little bundle and just moved it side to side. But now I realize, these two sliders actually tone map their half. This little difference makes a huge difference in how I conceptually work on an image.

So, I went from a method  tonal adjustments where I would exposure, then white and black, then highlight and shadow, then clarity, saturation (and the other similar slider), contrast to a new workflow. First, adjust the Highlights and shadows, to get you into an acceptable range. Then adjust exposure (readjust highlights and shadows if needed). Next, adjust clarity to give you a faux edge sharpening. Then use contrast to help balance out the actual tonality of the image. Next, pump up saturation and it's mate if you feel like it. Finally, adjust your whit and black clipping points using the two sliders. More than likely a curve should be applied also to control how the tones "roll" into each other.

A side effect of this appears to be expanding range really points out how noisy a sensor is. For instance, I can comfortably slide my OM-D EM-5 to 75% on the shadows, and not see too much noise. My Fuji X10, however, can't go much past 50%.

So, am I nuts, or does this all seem about right?

[Isaac]

Charles Cramer's LuLa article "Tonal Adjustments in the Age of Lightroom 4" is very helpful (if you haven't already seen it).

[SZRitter]

Haven't seen his, but I own Schewe's book, which is basically a longer version of this. I'm pretty sure that Schewe also says to adjust white and black first, but I find this to be completely wrong for me.

Of course, like any method in Lightroom, your mileage will vary.

Edit: Upon re-reading the article, I think both Mr. Cramer and Mr. Schewe used the term compression when dealing with the highlight and recovery sliders. My theory, is that this is exactly right, and is achieved through tone mapping. That never sunk in until I maxed out both sliders.

[Hans Kruse]

So, I had an eureka moment yesterday, and realized my entire concept of how the Highlight and Shadow sliders work are totally different than I thought. My original conception was that it kept everything in a nice little bundle and just moved it side to side. But now I realize, these two sliders actually tone map their half. This little difference makes a huge difference in how I conceptually work on an image.

So, I went from a method  tonal adjustments where I would exposure, then white and black, then highlight and shadow, then clarity, saturation (and the other similar slider), contrast to a new workflow. First, adjust the Highlights and shadows, to get you into an acceptable range. Then adjust exposure (readjust highlights and shadows if needed). Next, adjust clarity to give you a faux edge sharpening. Then use contrast to help balance out the actual tonality of the image. Next, pump up saturation and it's mate if you feel like it. Finally, adjust your whit and black clipping points using the two sliders. More than likely a curve should be applied also to control how the tones "roll" into each other.

A side effect of this appears to be expanding range really points out how noisy a sensor is. For instance, I can comfortably slide my OM-D EM-5 to 75% on the shadows, and not see too much noise. My Fuji X10, however, can't go much past 50%.

So, am I nuts, or does this all seem about right?

I don't think it matters so much exactly in which sequence you make the adjustments as long as you have understanding of what the sliders do and remember that the tonemapping sliders also exist in the brush, grad filer and radial filter! My approach is very much to use these sliders and combine contrast with exposure, blacks and whites for contrast and interate between tone curve adjustments and these basic panel and the filters wrt. tone mapping. The only issue I have with the tone mapping and clarity sliders is the ghosting that happens from time to time in cases of stronf contrasts along black or very dark objects.

[Isaac]

also says to adjust white and black first

That is not what the article suggests:

- "Since all six sliders in the Basic panel (from Exposure through Blacks) are now to some extent image-adaptive, the engineers at Adobe recommend adjusting these sliders in order,  from the top down.  They are designed to work this way, and this should usually give the best results."

- "The overall tonality—the balance of shadows, midtones and highlights—should first be set with the Exposure slider.  Then add desired contrast with the Contrast slider.  Then use the Highlights and Shadows to optimize those respective tonal areas.  Final tweaking of the image endpoints can be done with the Whites and Blacks sliders."

[SZRitter]

That is not what the article suggests:

- "Since all six sliders in the Basic panel (from Exposure through Blacks) are now to some extent image-adaptive, the engineers at Adobe recommend adjusting these sliders in order,  from the top down.  They are designed to work this way, and this should usually give the best results."

- "The overall tonality—the balance of shadows, midtones and highlights—should first be set with the Exposure slider.  Then add desired contrast with the Contrast slider.  Then use the Highlights and Shadows to optimize those respective tonal areas.  Final tweaking of the image endpoints can be done with the Whites and Blacks sliders."

Didn't say the article did, just that Schewe, through my understanding of his book, and maybe I have it wrong, recommended it.

[SZRitter]

I don't think it matters so much exactly in which sequence you make the adjustments as long as you have understanding of what the sliders do and remember that the tonemapping sliders also exist in the brush, grad filer and radial filter! My approach is very much to use these sliders and combine contrast with exposure, blacks and whites for contrast and interate between tone curve adjustments and these basic panel and the filters wrt. tone mapping. The only issue I have with the tone mapping and clarity sliders is the ghosting that happens from time to time in cases of stronf contrasts along black or very dark objects.

I think you are exactly right. And lucky for us in LR4 and LR5 those halos on the strong contrast edges have been minimized.

[Isaac]

Didn't say the article did, just that Schewe, ...

Sorry, I misunderstood what you meant by "also" (seems more like "in contrast").

[SZRitter]

Sorry, I misunderstood what you meant by "also" (seems more like "in contrast").

It's all good. Sometimes tone and inflection is hard to read in the internet. I would also add, that through all of my high school and college career, my instructors did note I had an awkward way of phrasing things.

[PhotoEcosse]

.... I would also add, that through all of my high school and college career, my instructors did note I had an awkward way of phrasing things.

Hopefully, at high school and college, you had educators rather than "instructors". I would hope that there has been very little "instruction" going on in our educational establishments nowadays. As someone educated in the 1950s, I regret that some teachers in those days did try to instruct rather than foster critical understanding. I still hate the bastards.

(Sorry - I just couldn't resist it.)

[SZRitter]

Hopefully, at high school and college, you had educators rather than "instructors". I would hope that there has been very little "instruction" going on in our educational establishments nowadays. As someone educated in the 1950s, I regret that some teachers in those days did try to instruct rather than foster critical understanding. I still hate the bastards.

(Sorry - I just couldn't resist it.)

I have to laugh at this, my wife is a high school math teacher! She is attempting to move from the drill and kill style teaching to one that fosters creative thinking and deeper understanding. The hardest part is apparently getting her students to think critically; instead they prefer to whine and ask for the easiest way out.

[Hans Kruse]

I think you are exactly right. And lucky for us in LR4 and LR5 those halos on the strong contrast edges have been minimized.

Wrt. to the last bit I was referring to LR5(.3). 

[ErikKaffehr]

+1

Erik

I don't think it matters so much exactly in which sequence you make the adjustments as long as you have understanding of what the sliders do and remember that the tonemapping sliders also exist in the brush, grad filer and radial filter! My approach is very much to use these sliders and combine contrast with exposure, blacks and whites for contrast and interate between tone curve adjustments and these basic panel and the filters wrt. tone mapping. The only issue I have with the tone mapping and clarity sliders is the ghosting that happens from time to time in cases of stronf contrasts along black or very dark objects.

[BenMm]

If you hover the cursor over the histogram it will highlight the region for each of the 4 sliders, black, shadows, highlights, white.  That's the part of the range that is affected by that slider.  The highlighting is subtle (not easy to see).

[Schewe]

Haven't seen his, but I own Schewe's book, which is basically a longer version of this. I'm pretty sure that Schewe also says to adjust white and black first, but I find this to be completely wrong for me.

No, I don't...I tell people to adjust Exposure first, Contrast second, then followed by Highlights and Shadows and finally use Blacks and Whites to tune the end points. There's a reason Thomas put the sliders in the order he did...that's the order he uses himself.

[SZRitter]

No, I don't...I tell people to adjust Exposure first, Contrast second, then followed by Highlights and Shadows and finally use Blacks and Whites to tune the end points. There's a reason Thomas put the sliders in the order he did...that's the order he uses himself.

Huh, I must have read, or remembered what I read, incorrectly. my apologies.

[Phil Indeblanc]

All the more reason to make the interface of the Develop modules to dock and be customized for each persons workflow :-)

There has never been a time where I have gone down the list of tools to process my image without having to make tweaks in different areas.
Besides it being unprofessional to lock the tools in place, it is also very Instructive.

(I know the answer Schewe...BUT, One day perhaps whoever is doing what Thomas was supposed to do will see the light!)

[Schewe]

Besides it being unprofessional to lock the tools in place, it is also very Instructive.

(I know the answer Schewe...BUT, One day perhaps whoever is doing what Thomas was supposed to do will see the light!)

So, you are an experienced software developer with extensive background with UI and usability design? Hum...I didn't know that.

Look, you can either fight against the software or learn to use it. Constantly wishing things were different will only lead to frustration and reduced operating facility with what the software offers. It's a lot easier to swim downstream instead of upstream...(and you get where you want to be a lot quicker).

[PhotoEcosse]

I agree with using most of the Develop module adjustments in the order they are sequenced on the UI.

The exception is the application of camera and lens profiles. I tend to apply them first, then go back up to the top and crop - and then work down the adjustments from north to south.

(But, as with so many things in Lightroom, it is a case of what works best for the individual user. Or, at least, what the individual user believes works best for him/her.)

[Phil Indeblanc]

So, you are an experienced software developer with extensive background with UI and usability design? Hum...I didn't know that.
Look, you can either fight against the software or learn to use it. Constantly wishing things were different will only lead to frustration and reduced operating facility with what the software offers. It's a lot easier to swim downstream instead of upstream...(and you get where you want to be a lot quicker).

You are right about fighting it or going with the flow. And for now, I am going with the flow, at the same time knowing what is possible that would make workflows smoother is hard to ignore when forced a way of working. (Specially when working in conjunction with apps that do give such flexibility i.e. PS ).

If I were an experienced software developer with extensive background with UI and usability, I would get the UI design aspect info from a group of professional photographers in different fields of photography (around 12 would do it), from landscape fine artists to production studio commercial photographers, to give input with all the different situations and needs. It would be up to me (and likely others) to come up with a flexible solution.
I would take that info and do what I know best as a software developer.