H5D-40 vs IQ140/Credo40

[calindustries]

I'm "this close" to getting an H5D-40 at a very good price. I had been originally triggered again into investing into MF by the LeafCredo40 deal right now, but after a lot and a lot and a lot of thought have been swayed to go with an H system simply because of the hole in the LS line up for Schneider lenses. If there were a 35 or 40mm I would have been a lot more interested. At this point please don't' try to convince me otherwise about the camera system. I would like feedback about any reason to try to find a H4X and IQ140 or Credo40 instead of the H5D.

I love C1 so this is my main reason for keeping this option in my head. But what should I expect the difference between the Kodak on the Hassy vs the Dalsa on the IQ/Credo? I rarely am not strobing so higher ISO isn't a big issue. I most likely won't be looking at any tech camera options as I mostly shoot portrait. I'd love to look into a bigger sensor, but $ is limited at this stage. I don't think I can use an H1/H2 because I have committed to a 35-90 as my first lens (I always used a 24-70 on my 5DMKII). I also can't afford to straight buy a new H4X and back as combined they would be too big of a difference to the H5D deal I have offered (which has maxed my budget), but a used/demo set up in the same price range would trigger my interest.

Thoughts?

-Craig

[synn]

I am a strobe based shooter using the credo 40 for portraiture and am very happy with the results. I have no experience with an H5D, but the Hassy body itself is rather nice and you can't go wrong with an H4x and a Credo 40.

I tried phocus and C1 for a while to get a hang of both user experiences and image quality and preferred C1 in the end. That was one of the main reasons for going with the Credo.

Color-wise, I have worked on a few Hassy files in Phocus, but overall prefer the Leaf profiles very much. It's again a subjective thing.

Here's a sample shot:

[JV]

Craig,

The H4X will work with the HCD 35-90 but you will not get the DAC lens corrections that you would get with the H5D-40 and Phocus.

Also last time I checked (about 6 months ago) C1 did not have a lens profile for the 35-90 lens.

I am not sure how bad all of the above is but if I bought a $8K lens I would want it to be optimally supported and that guarantee you will only get with a Hasselblad body and the Hasselblad software.

Obviously the Credo has other things going for it as well like a much better LCD screen.

Thanks, Joris.

[Dustbak]

C1 has profiles for the H lenses as well, pretty good profiles but not as good as the ones in Phocus. I use both C1 as well as Phocus. Phocus is pretty straight forward, by now it is pretty stable, it also has a lot less bells and whistles. Phocus still misses some functionality I would really like but that will probably come in time.

Either way, I have opted for the H5 (HB several years ago) but it might also have been H with P1 or Leaf.

[JV]

C1 has profiles for the H lenses as well, pretty good profiles but not as good as the ones in Phocus.

Agreed, but not for all lenses, they have profiles for 7 out of 12 lenses.

[orc73]

wow I really like the skin tones from that shot!
The reason I went for Hasselbald h4d-40 over the P1 was the skin colors, which I was only able to test on a P40(which I did not like) and did not get my hands on a credo 40. Truefocus is a great advantage as well.
Other then that, yes Phocus is a pain and C1 a reason to choose leaf/p1 over Hasselblad.

[synn]

Personally, I like the skintones from Leaf files more than the ones from P1 files.
I have tried working on files from an H4D 40 and they weren't too bad. But again, that was in Phocus, so I can't really give an A to B comparison vs the Leaf files.

[sbernthal]

Phocus is just barely usable, vs. C1 which is the best software on the market.
For me this was a deal breaker every time I've considered the H system.
I believe H4 backs were not quite as good as the previous generation of Aptus backs.
The current Credo backs are a big step ahead, which I believe leaves H far behind in terms of colors, image quality and usability.
The tethering is highly improved in Credo - it is not very good in any H backs to the best of my knowledge.

[Joe Towner]

The Hass is a system.  If you're getting that good of a deal on the H5D-40, run with it.  If you've hit up every dealer that would have a used H4X or a used Phase 40mp back, then you really have to run with what options are on the market.  I LOVE what the 35-90 gives me on a H4, and it is a lens that will keep me at least half in the Hass camp.

[calindustries]

Phocus is just barely usable, vs. C1 which is the best software on the market.
For me this was a deal breaker every time I've considered the H system.
I believe H4 backs were not quite as good as the previous generation of Aptus backs.
The current Credo backs are a big step ahead, which I believe leaves H far behind in terms of colors, image quality and usability.
The tethering is highly improved in Credo - it is not very good in any H backs to the best of my knowledge.

This is my biggest fear. Are you saying this from a standpoint of you've REALLY used it and still hated it or you tried it once and hated it. I don't expect it to be better than C1, I think we all (mostly) agree that C1 is the best software, but give me a reason why you think it is barely usable please.

[calindustries]

Does anyone have samples of H5D-40 raw files (preferably portrait shots) I could see and try with Phocus? I just downloaded it but it seems as the hasselblad site only has tiffs to download.

[Theodoros]

Isn't Hassy a Kodak sensor camera, while P1/Credo are with Dalsa? …There is a look difference then, …no? I don't see how one can compare image quality of two superb products that their look preference is a personal preference matter… As of software, I would agree that C1 has more capabilities, but Phocus is capable enough, I don't thing that buyers of those products like to mess with their Raws to the extend that the software would make the difference to them...

[sbernthal]

This is my biggest fear. Are you saying this from a standpoint of you've REALLY used it and still hated it or you tried it once and hated it. I don't expect it to be better than C1, I think we all (mostly) agree that C1 is the best software, but give me a reason why you think it is barely usable please.

I've used Phocus only a little bit, but I was very disappointed with everything.
At this point C1 is the golden standard, and even Lightroom is not really comparable.
BTW I believe you can use Lightroom rather than Phocus for H files.
There are just not that many options available in Phocus, and the UI is terrible.

Development software is an absolutely essential part of the workflow.
A lot of people think that the H body and lenses are better than P1, and I don't argue.
For me the body was not that important, and I preferred a system with the best support so all parts coming from the same company.
I think you should get H body and Credo back.
Even if it was Aptus it would be better, but with Credo there is no comparison.

[Dustbak]

I use Phocus virtually everyday and totally disagree with it being barely usable. It is very solid,provided you use recommended hardware setups. It is different compared to C1 and you do need a different workflow but it is a matter of getting used to it.

With Phocus I export earlier towards PS than with C1, with C1 I do more in the program itself.

Shooting tethered with Phocus is very nice, fast and (in most cases) very reliable and stable.

Again Phocus is pretty basic compared to C1 which I find just fine, I don't need my raw converter to do all sorts of stuff that PS is much better in. Having said that there are some things I would definitely like to have in Phocus (conditional backup, some forms of local adjustment, eg. Exposure).

Phocus used to be a little less stable with my H4 but with the H5 it is pretty rock solid.

Using LR for HB files is IMO not a good thing, LR has terrible color with the H, file quality is definitely less than from Phocus.


For UI it is a matter of what you are used to. I had to get used to the UI of C1 which I found too cluttere, too much options, too much symbols that were not self explanatory, etc.. With other words I had to get used to it. C1 simply has the best rendering for the D800 so I took the effort to get to know it. Now I am fine with it... Get the point?

[Go Go]

Ditto,

I use Phocus every day and as long as it is installed in a computer with a robust video card it works very well.

I've been using it for over 6 years and the program seems to get better and better, the color especially the flesh tones are amazing.

The H camera with the 40 sensor is very capable, it focuses accurately and makes clean ISO 800 files.

But you should try to spend some time shooting it before you decide, IMO.

Good luck.

[yaya]

For studio work the Credo does a few things that make the workflow smooth and enjoyable, and also future proof:

Firewire 800 AND USB3 tethering, giving you all the options on different platforms. The on-board battery means that you are not relying on bus power which can be challenged at times.

The LCD stays active during tethered shooting and allows you to browse, zoom into, adjust (e.g. WB) and rate the last 10 shots.

If there is a CF card in the back, you can yank the FW/ USB cable and continue to shoot into the card.

In case you need a backup body, or wish to try a different body, or change platforms altogether, the same back can be used on similar bodies, some other bodies (e.g. RZ, Fuji 680, view cameras) or its mount can be changed to fit a different 645/ 6x6 platform. Note that if you buy the back with a Gold Package (extended warranty) you are entitled for 1 mount change at no extra charge, should you decide to switch from e.g. H4X to 645DF+

There is also Live View, not that relevant when shooting people but it's worth noting that when you shoot tethered, you can use it either on the LCD or the computer.

However as I always tell people, the best way to decide it to try, try and try some more. Only YOU can tell what works better for you, what annoys you and what will serve your creativity better.

Best

Yair

[henrikfoto]

Credo is the better back I think. For skin it's fantastic!
I am also sure you will find the Phase one LS optics better than Hasselblad.
I have both systems and like the Phase/Leaf much better.

The only weekness is the body.. But I guess the new Phase one body is right around the corner..

Pluss Leaf/Phase is the marked leader and is making good money. From what the rumors says
Hasselblad has seen better times.

[eronald]

Credo is the better back I think. For skin it's fantastic!
I am also sure you will find the Phase one LS optics better than Hasselblad.
I have both systems and like the Phase/Leaf much better.

The only weekness is the body.. But I guess the new Phase one body is right around the corner..

Pluss Leaf/Phase is the marked leader and is making good money. From what the rumors says
Hasselblad has seen better times.

Everyone here will tell you how wonderful the Phase files are and C1. It is all true. But you'd better test very carefully to make sure you that the body handles the sort of work you do. The story "a better body is coming" is one we have heard year after year, and every time it really did come and was a warmed over Mamiya.

As for Phase One being the market leader - if that were the argument, everyone here would have a Canon. I for one have heard that Hassy is outselling Phase, and I know that the Hassy office in Paris is very accessible and helpful.

Which brings me to the last piece of advice: Buy whatever system has better dealer support in the town you live in, or talk to Doug and Steve who are present on this forum - they have a rep for helpfulness and honesty. Medium format with a good dealer is wonderful. Medium format with a bad dealer should be avoided at all costs.

Edmund

[synn]

Everyone here will tell you how wonderful the Phase files are and C1. It is all true. But you'd better test very carefully to make sure you that the body handles the sort of work you do. The story "a better body is coming" is one we have heard year after year, and every time it really did come and was a warmed over Mamiya.

I agree with Edmund that one should do first hand testing before making their own decisions.
I disagree that the DF+ is just a warmed over Mamiya. It feels and works a lot better than the AFD series bodies. More than the on-paper changes would suggest. It has never locked up on me and focusing has been very accurate. The metering tends to be a tad hot for the Credo back, but when using strobes, that's not a concern.

[eronald]

I agree with Edmund that one should do first hand testing before making their own decisions.
I disagree that the DF+ is just a warmed over Mamiya. It feels and works a lot better than the AFD series bodies. More than the on-paper changes would suggest. It has never locked up on me and focusing has been very accurate. The metering tends to be a tad hot for the Credo back, but when using strobes, that's not a concern.

I don't know what the paper changes are. When I want a test for myself, I point the camera at a person and go click.  Over the years, I repeatedly did tests of this sort with Mamiya and Hassy and regarding focus the Hassy won *every* time. Re. file quality, the Phase back won every time, in my opinion. I did several tests of this type over the years, including one with a member of this forum at his studio in New York, were we tested different bodies, both with Phase backs. Interestingly, Canon didn't always win on focus accuracy when compared.

If you have a different view, you are free to say so, you are a respected working photographer and are perfectly qualified to have an opinion, but don't confuse me with somebody else on this forum.

I can tell you a story. I had back issues. I was at an imaging conference and showed the images to one of Leaf's developers. He said if Phase sell you a $25K back they should at least sell you something that works -Phase and Leaf were not yet married. I went to see my dealer. He said the Phase images had no issues. I said they had black lines all over. His assistant came by, took one look, and said "yes there are black lines all over, and once you see them you see only them." The dealer would have killed her. Once you start being defensive about  piece of equipment you stop seeing how it really works.

Edmund