Metal Prints - Long term opportunity or fad?

[mcpix]

With the kind help and advice of Dan Berg, I've been working on getting set up for prints on aluminum. At this point, I'm definitely taking a cautious approach to this new business. I'm converting an Epson 4880 to dye sub inks, and I'm using a heat press that will let me produce up to 15x19 prints. So far, I don't know what the most popular size of prints will be. Maybe this set up will handle the majority of customer requests, but I remember with canvas how I quickly discovered that I needed to upgrade to a 44" printer.

I just talked to another customer who is very interested in metal prints. As I've said before, there is definitely a buzz among photographers about metal prints. So, I'm wondering if maybe I should just go big from the beginning. The printer is not that expensive (Epson 9890 about $3,500) and the inks are close to the same price for either machine. The problem is the $9,000 price tag of the heat press. Still $12,500 is not that bad for a completely new business, particularly since I have no local competition, and I can't find anyone within 75 miles of me that offers this service.

The question is..will the demand for metal prints last? If it does last, will it be like canvas, with virtually everyone getting into the business?

[Some Guy]

Who knows if it will last? 

Cibachromes were hot for a while long ago with slide film, and they got cheaper with volume.  Metal prints may go that way too once the market becomes saturated and makers of them begin to underbid each other - or "On sale" prices begin to stick.  It could be a novelty printing too like coffee cup photos or T-shirt photos - once you have one, next!

Business is always a gamble.  Might be better to sell the goods to do it too, and offer classes.

SG

[shadowblade]

They'll be around until there's another way to produce an ultra-glossy, highly-durable, ready-to-hang print at the same price point, with some additional features to give it the edge over metal prints. Most likely a UV printer of some sort, since they can print on anything (metal, wood, etc.) and, using pigments rather than dyes, are more lightfast. , Someone would need to release a fine art-focused UV printer, though - 24-44" wide (not the 3.2m industrial-grade monsters that cost as much as a small house), with 12 inks for better gamut and an inbuilt system to overlay it with a UV-cured laminate for gloss, lustre or matte output.

[dgberg]

Hello Max,
Glad to hear you have moved forward with your project.
As primarily a canvas producing company I have seen the sales slipping the last 2 years. One of the reasons I elected to get into the dye sub market.
Being able to offer the metal prints even in small sizes has really filled the gap.
Get the word out the best you can for your smaller sizes and see how it goes.

Finding a printer/press combination is really difficult.
I swear the press manufactures do not even communicate with the printer manufacturers.
What is really needed is something in the middle size range.
A 24" printer and a medium press like 24x36 and a larger one 24x60. With the larger you could do really nice 20x60 panos without breaking the bank.
I talked with the folks at Geo Knight Heat Press Co. and they will build a custom size but the price is high. So back to square one,try to find a used one.
I am still stuck in the exact same mode as you.
I am trying to find a used 44x60 press. If I can then I will buy the 9890 printer.
The size issue seems to be a bottomless pit. The 30 x 40 press is somewhat affordable even new.
If you have the 44" printer and only a 30x40 press then you are still only going halfway.
Next option is that real expensive 44x60 press. If you go that route you now have a printer that matches your press size which is ideal.
Except now that combination is a 20 thousand dollar bill which is a pretty big number to get a return on at my age. You may be a whole lot younger.

DigitSmith classifieds is the place to check if you are looking for a large press.
Finding one in your area is the hard part as the shipping can be a killer unless the price is right.
A new 40x60 in LA is listed with no price.

[spacegrey]

Dan, are you talking about mechanical press or Vacuum table type machine?

[dgberg]

Mechanical heat press. Example Geo. Knight or AIT   400 degrees+ F temperature plus mechanical pressure.
A vacuum hot press will not do dye sublimation.
 It only heats to 210 degrees F and is for other types of mounting and laminating

Shown top of the line Geo. Knight Maxi Press 44x64 is 20k.

[John Nollendorfs]

Dan:
I'm surprised no one has thought about making a rolling type heat press similar to the lamination type machines. It wouldn't take up that much space and should use less electricity.

[dgberg]

Dan:
I'm surprised no one has thought about making a rolling type heat press similar to the lamination type machines. It wouldn't take up that much space and should use less electricity.

Quite a few of them on the market.
This 44" model from AIT is $20,000 and is the entry level model more for sports apparel.

[dgberg]

The bigger issue not discussed yet is shipping larger sized metal prints.
When you get to these larger sizes you almost need a small crate to ship them properly. 30x40 to 40x60.
As soon as you get past the UPS max shipping size you now need to ship truck freight a much bigger expense.
Start with a $350.00 metal print add $50 to $100 to build a crate and $100 + or - for shipping you are now in that questionable pricing zone of $500.00+
I have sent several 20x24 via UPS faced with a layer of bubble wrap and a layer of cardboard on each side then sandwiched between 2 pieces of 5/16" multiply.
Pretty hard if not impossible to damage but oh what a pain. To wrap and ship takes almost an hour of time not compensated for.
Just something to think about.

[rubo]

There is another way to go about it - direct printing - I do it all day everyday, that's actually my business - well, a small part of it. There are few coatings one can use to make aluminum - or anything else, for that matter, printable. I developed my own coating that works better than what's available on the market today - you can see the printing in action here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5VH_CvN8ZMs
So again, no need to get into all the expense of sublimation setup

[shadowblade]

There is another way to go about it - direct printing - I do it all day everyday, that's actually my business - well, a small part of it. There are few coatings one can use to make aluminum - or anything else, for that matter, printable. I developed my own coating that works better than what's available on the market today - you can see the printing in action here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5VH_CvN8ZMs
So again, no need to get into all the expense of sublimation setup

It's a lot more fragile than a dye-sub print, though, even if you spray it. What's the gloss differential like? And we don't know how strong the bond between the aluminium and the inkjet coating is, or if it will start peeling off in ten years.

[rubo]

the finish is automotive grade clear coat - as a matter of fact, I have a body shop next door clearing the prints for me. don't know about peeling off in 10 years - hasn't been that long, but have few outdoor signs made some 3 years ago - they look as good as brand new - in Los Angeles, facing south. As for "we don't know how strong the bond..." - the only way to know is to try it,right? Ask me in another 7 years 

[Scott Martin]

When we talk about prints on metal I think it's important to specify dye-sumblimation prints on metal or UV Curable prints on metal. Just like we might specify pigment inkjet print on paper versus Chromagenic print. And mention coating/varnishing when appropriate.

Most likely a UV printer of some sort, since they can print on anything (metal, wood, etc.) and, using pigments rather than dyes, are more lightfast. , Someone would need to release a fine art-focused UV printer, though - 24-44" wide (not the 3.2m industrial-grade monsters that cost as much as a small house), with 12 inks for better gamut and an inbuilt system to overlay it with a UV-cured laminate for gloss, lustre or matte output.

I've been making and selling UV Curable prints on aluminum dibond for the last 2 years since Vutek started beta testing the first 1000+dpi, 32 pass machine with an 8 color inkset. When it's calibrated right (which is a challenge), and run at it's max resolution and number of passes (32), the quality of this printer is surprisingly good, especially for large format work. Without a coat/varnish it's more lightfast than any other digital printing process without a coat. With a UV Curable varnish (note this is not the kind of water soluble liquid laminate most of us use on aqueous prints) it's more lightfast and has more surface durability than any other digital printing process I know of. You can walk on them, run your fingernails across them and put them out in the sun and rain.

But UV Curable prints don't have the fine precision and detail that the more delicate sublimation prints on aluminum have. From my estimation sublimation prints can resolve somewhere near 300ppi worth of image detail while Vutek's machines (with their highest, res, # of passes and 8 color inkset) resolve around 240 ppi worth of image detail.  So I only use UV Curable printing for 30x40 and larger prints where my image resolution is at or below 240ppi anyway, and when I compare them to sublimation prints at the same size there's no loss of image quality relative to each other. So I'd say this printer is fine art focused in the grand format sizing category. I doubt you'll see an affordable 24-44 UV Curable printer since these manufacturers are clearly focused on high volume customers (as ware Epson, Canon and HP these days which have all but moved away from 24-44" aqueous development).

UV curable machines tend to be between 60" wide and 5 meters wide and can cost up to $900,000 (for the Vutek HS100Pro that I use) whereas sublimation printing is almost always done at around 30x40" and smaller. Makes sense.

[rubo]

"Someone would need to release a fine art-focused UV printer" - doesn't have to be UV printer - they suck at printing art. I actually built my flatbed - converted Mutoh RJ900 into a flatbed - had a client who wasn't satisfied with the quality of flatbed prints available, so the question was "can you get me Epson quality?" So after looking hard at flatbeds I realized it's just an overpriced CNC table with printheads attached - so, screw it, I'm going for it. Epson head, 1440x1440 resolution, picoliter size is a lot smaller than on any commercial flatbed. Here is the machine printing on aluminum:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KaqyzyA0aqM
and ceramic tiles:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2PyXcrOqC4g
here is the z-axis motion in action:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oybTJP3kTp0
I'm getting calls to do this (conversion) for people - they send me Epson 9880 and get a flatbed printer with superior quality printing compared to any flatbed. Done that, seen that.

[Scott Martin]

"Someone would need to release a fine art-focused UV printer" - doesn't have to be UV printer - they suck at printing art. Done that, seen that.

Umm, have you worked a $900,000 Vutek HS100Pro that's really well calibrated? It doesn't suck. It's a beautiful thing to work on - the dot placement accuracy and 3 point type are amazing. Few people have actually seen this kind of quality from a UV Curable printer. There aren't that many of them around and few people that own them are willing to run them at the speeds that give you Epson like quality. The ability to instantly fry ink on something like glass and still get amazing dot placement and color saturation can't be matched on any other process.

So you've created an aqueous flatbed - is that it? That's cool, but a lot different than UV in terms of lightfastness and durability. Congrats on the conversion - that's cool stuff, and useful for a variety of situations.

Don't get me wrong - I love aqueous, solvent, latex and UV Curable printing and work with all of them traveling around the country. But there are distinct advantages to each and reasons to choose one over the other for different situations. Aqueous used to be the only way to go quality-wise but I'm excited to see that changing.

[Scott Martin]

converted Mutoh RJ900 into a flatbed

For fine art work I think having an inkset with at least one light black and light colors is a must have... Anything with 4 colors, no matter how small the picoliter and resolution is disappointing to me. Epson's Surecolor S70 (12 colors), for example, creates amazing fine art quality prints while the S50 and S30 (each 4 colors) are disappointing even thought they all share the same, latest great Epson heads.

[rubo]

well, of course there is a difference between $900K printer and $4K printer. My experience is with "lower" end flatbeds - HP something or another 60" machine with a belt, Flora and Gerber Cat - both "true" flatbeds. They're fast of course, but they're not made to print fine art. As for number of colors - the whole color theory is based on premise that one prints on white background - I  never print on white, so CMYK is enough. The other trick I have - I got rid of clients whining about color fidelity and such - and I'm still pretty busy. As for light fastness - I run DTG pigment inks in my flatbed - these don't fade after all the washing and exposure to sun - or fade to an acceptable degree - I mean, everything fades, but clear-coated so far they last for few years with no issues outdoors. For indoor use I'll bet good money my prints will last as long any flatbed prints. So going back to flatbed as a concept - I can print - and I do - on aluminum, bronze, copper, glass, tiles, wood, burlap, plexy - without having to shell out s&^%tload of money.

[I.T. Supplies]

Metal printing with Dye Sublimation will be getting much better and recommended due to it's very long longevity.  Epson came out with their F7070 (64") Dye-sub with large quantity of ink per color for a low price (6 pouches of 1000ml/ea per color).  Since you can't scratch, burn or rub off an image from metal, it's almost indestructible (unless you try to bend or cut the metal).  It's even water proof and resistant.

If you get a large Dye-Sub printer, there are options available for large heat presses.  Unisub offers these products and told us that there are very large heat presses available if needed.  I'm not sure the cost will be around the $900k like the other person stated, but they will be available.

[Wayne Fox]

Metal printing with Dye Sublimation will be getting much better and recommended due to it's very long longevity. 

Your source for this?  Chromaluxe own testing shows it is better than photographic paper but still falls short of pigment inkjet printers.  Additionally if you look at the graphs, the magenta fades at a much faster rate than the other colors.  So while incredibly durable physically so certainly great longevity,  I'm not sold on the long term color stability.

[mcpix]

Does anyone have any experience with these heat presses?
http://www.heatpressinc.com/product-category/heat-press-machines/large-format-heat-presses/

I emailed them and so far no reply. These are Chinese presses, and the sizes don't match the Epson printers as well as I would like, but they are much cheaper.