Printing Profiling Targets with No Color Management

[samueljohnchia]

Hi,

What are the current reliable ways of printing with totally no color managment for profiling targets, to an Epson printer, on a Mac? I use windows and just helping someone out, and I'm not familiar with OSX and its many versions.

I know it should be fine if using ACPU.

Is it still possible to print a target with no color management from CS6/LR4 or 5 on mac, in the standard driver by letting printer manage colors, and turning off color management in the printer driver?

Is it reliable to print from i1Profiler itself?

[digitaldog]

Is it still possible to print a target with no color management from CS6/LR4 or 5 on mac, in the standard driver by letting printer manage colors, and turning off color management in the printer driver?

Is it reliable to print from i1Profiler itself?

No and yes.

[samueljohnchia]

Thanks Andrew! What are the other reliable methods to print targets with no color management from Macs to Epsons, on the later OS versions and not using CS3 or 4?

[Justin B]

What are the other reliable methods to print targets with no color management from Macs to Epsons, on the later OS versions and not using CS3 or 4?

The ACPU or straight from the profiling software. Those are your only options. Why would you not just print straight from i1Profiler?

[samueljohnchia]

I want to know my options. It's good to know if I have other alternatives, if say a link in the chain breaks. I'm not entirely confident in the many ways OSX handles non tagged images.

http://www.josephholmes.com/news-photoshopCS5printing.html

[MHMG]

Not sure when Apple updated the ColorSync Utility, but at least in OS10.9 (and maybe mountain Lion) you can open your color target as a tif in CSU, then under the print menu select "Print as Color Target". That's Apple's answer to the whole color target printing debacle on the MAC.

Ironically, CSU is the only way to print photos properly color managed on a MAC other than using professional Adobe software like LR, PS, or Indesign.  You are given control over rendering intents including black point compensation if you want it. No way I've found to invoke any rendering intent other than Relcol from any Mac OS version apps other than the professional Adobe apps.  Mac's printing pipeline has deprecated rendering intent options and kept them hidden from the consumer in everything but CSU.  So, apps like Apple Pages, Microsoft Word mac version, or even Mac-centric photo apps like Pixelmator are pretty useless on color managed print output unless the default RelCol (no bpc) is suitable to your conversion needs.  Geez Apple engineers, weren't you guys pioneers in color managed printing? At least make the dumbed down printing default perceptual not relcol!!!  Otherwise photos print with blocked up shadows in most cases

Only work-around I've figured out for apps like Apple Pages is to convert the file to PDF, then use Adobe Reader with "preserve blacks" advanced option selected. Sad but true.

cheers,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com

[samueljohnchia]

Sad but true.

cheers,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com

Thanks for your thoughts, Mark. I had to re-read your words twice. I can hardly believe it. It's simply ridiculous. Nobody should have the right to mess with our color like that. Nobody except us.

So is printing through Photoshop or Lightroom on 10.9 (or 10.8) problem free now? Should the application or printer manage colors? CSU has ultimate veto power? Joseph Holmes' report makes me highly nervous that strange things can happen, and when it goes wrong, its sometimes very subtle and difficult to catch!

[MHMG]

So is printing through Photoshop or Lightroom on 10.9 (or 10. problem free now? Should the application or printer manage colors?...

I just modified/rewrote one sentence in my post. So now it reads: Ironically, CSU is the only way to print photos properly color managed on a MAC other than using professional Adobe software like LR, PS, or Indesign.

So, yes, you get great (predictable) color managed output with Adobe pro apps like LR, PS, and Indesign on the latest MAC OS, and it adds back into the printer menu window the rendering intent options that Apple has chosen to hide for essentially all other apps on the Mac. But let Adobe manage color not "printer manages color" to do the correct color conversion. Problem on the Mac is when the software you are using is relying on the normal Mac printer pipeline. Whereas Adobe hijacks that pipeline, makes the desired conversion with chosen rendering intent first, then forces a "no color adjust" mode at the printer driver level, the Mac printer pipeline is technically color managed but eliminates any options over rendering intent and defaults to RelCol, which without a BPC option, is mostly wrong for digital image content as I noted previously. There's the rub, and I've spoken to Apple support technicians at nauseum about my findings, and they said "send in a feature request ticket". Yikes. I guess I should, but I'm not on Apple's "evangelist" list, so I feel sort of like my feature request would be like pissing off the ledge of the Grand Canyon and hoping a little green grass will eventually grow down in the valley

And "one more thing" as Steve Jobs used to always say: It's Adobe's commitment to printmaking professionals who need the whole color management suite of proper conversion controls that finally made me go to the "dark side" and sign up for Adobe CC. I tried hard to find a photo editing alternative to PS, and ultimately I concluded that most just don't have the pro tool set I need to get the job done. Some potentially nice ones like Pixelmator failed to meet my needs simply because they depended on the Mac printer pipeline sans rendering intent options. Pixelmator did have one other huge deficiency, but that's another story.

best,
Mark

[Wayne Fox]

Interesting thread.  concern over a 4 year old article about a problem that no longer exists.  Adobe's utility is free, easy to download, and solves the problem so why make a big deal?  Why an "alternative"? 

As far as color management, colorsync changes were designed for Apple's average customers and the fact is after the changes consumers get a simplified ability to manage color from any application, including selecting an output profile. Doesn't affect those who are after good output in the slightest ... we have and use other tools and I don't know what Apple could provide that would be beneficial.  So while technically it may be true that full color management is only available through professional applications, who cares? 

As far as printing from Lightroom and Photoshop, other than printing unmanaged targets there have really never been any problems, other than users needing to clean up things and understand the workflow.  The unmanaged target problem (how many really need that) have been addressed by xRite and Adobe (and quite some time ago).

Sorry, but this horse has been kicked to death a long time ago, and really is no longer news or an issue.

[samueljohnchia]

Whereas Adobe hijacks that pipeline, makes the desired conversion with chosen rendering intent first, then forces a "no color adjust" mode at the printer driver level

If Adobe is able to do this, then why is there no simple (hidden to average users) way of printing without color management, through Photoshop? Argh... (I'm taking it Lightroom isn't intended for printing profiling targets, although there is no technical reason why not, only usage semantics)

Why is it necessary for the problematic and fussy ACPU, which isn't supported? Problems with resizing and margins on windows too. No CMYK.

In an older thread, Andrew Rodney's measurements shows that there may be an issue with printing using i1Profiler across different Mac OS versions. What a headache.

[samueljohnchia]

Interesting thread.  concern over a 4 year old article about a problem that no longer exists.  Adobe's utility is free, easy to download, and solves the problem so why make a big deal?  Why an "alternative"?

Well, I do not normally work from a mac and I am helping someone out on their workstation so I wanted to clarify the current state of things. I didn't know if the latest versions of Mac OS broke the no color management pipeline again. After all that had happened, one does get a little nervous.

ACPU is not totally problem free. And then I read this: ACPU will only print correctly if it is listed in the AppColorMatchingInfo.xml file. Who knew?

[MHMG]

As far as color management, colorsync changes were designed for Apple's average customers and the fact is after the changes consumers get a simplified ability to manage color from any application, including selecting an output profile. Doesn't affect those who are after good output in the slightest ... we have and use other tools and I don't know what Apple could provide that would be beneficial.  So while technically it may be true that full color management is only available through professional applications, who cares?  

Anyone who wants more competition in the marketplace. Although I'm a power user with PS and LR, I definitely do not need all the complexity/richness of Indesign, for example. I could happily live with with a "lite" version like Word or Pages if I could rely on Apple's color managed printer pipeline to default to perceptual rendering rather than relcol or better yet, give me back all the rendering intent options.  This  color managed capability really should be in implemented at the OS level. Software companies shouldn't be having to reverse engineer color management at the app level like Adobe did.. It's a stupid choice on Apple's part that should be fixed.

Just to reiterate, Apple's Colorsync utility gets it absolutely right. So, come on Apple, implement CSU's color management capability system wide!!!

cheers,
Mark

[digitaldog]

Sorry, but this horse has been kicked to death a long time ago, and really is no longer news or an issue.

Unless you're working on that two year old OS, I tend to agree. The need to print data without color management is tiny and we usually hear this from people who are working with targets for the creation of an ICC profile. The targets and that print process should be the burden of the profile creation software. About the onlty time I printed without color management instead was testing two different profiles or intents next to each other on one print. I would have to use Convert to Profile on each, gang up on one document and print without color management. And in that rare case, I'd save a TIFF and print outside LR or Photoshop.

[digitaldog]

At least make the dumbed down printing default perceptual not relcol!!!

Now the user is forced to deal with the idiosyncrasies of the perctpual rendering which is vender specific. Not that a Colorimetric would produce identical results (although it should). Or just use the default intent the profile was built to assume if there's no option for the user. But why does Apple assume untagged RGB is your display instead of sRGB or give us a choice as I seem to recall OS9 doing?

[MHMG]

The need to print data without color management is tiny and we usually hear this from people who are working with targets for the creation of an ICC profile.

Yup. Totally agree on the target printing issue where a viable work around of almost any sorts is going to solve the issue for the color management expert.

However, the need to use a rendering intent other than RelCol is much more than a geek level problem. Apple took rendering intent options away at the OS level and passed it off to software developers apparently, so other than CSU as a printing interface on the Mac, that leave's Adobe software as pretty much the only game in town at this point in time. No slight to Adobe, big slight to Apple, but am I the only one who thinks that's a shame?

best,
Mark

[MHMG]

Or just use the default intent the profile was built to assume if there's no option for the user.

right, except that Apple is ignoring the tag. You get Relcol no matter what from any number of Applications. I've tried pages, Pixelmator, Word, Excel, etc, etc. All being printed with default relcol and no Bpc even when the profile default intent tag is set to perceptual. If Apple engineers want to go around the proprietary flavors of perceptual, then fine, but at least admit some kind of BPC option is extremely useful if not essential.

cheers,
Mark

[digitaldog]

No slight to Adobe, big slight to Apple, but am I the only one who thinks that's a shame?

There are so many other and IMHO more important areas that Apple should get shit for with respect to color, no, I don't think this is much of a shame. I mean MS Word, Pages, I think of them as non color managed anyway. Adobe gets it right because they have to, even if it means hacking around to do so thankfully. We still don't have OS high bit support with app's, video cards and displays all set to go. That dumb assumption of untagged data has to be a bigger issue for more people than those printing from Word. Is there even a ColorSync product manager?

[MHMG]

That dumb assumption of untagged data has to be a bigger issue for more people than those printing from Word. Is there even a ColorSync product manager?

Fair enough. printing from apps like Word, Pages, or Excel may not mean anything to you or most other professional graphics providers, but what about finding any competitive image editing apps to compete with Adobe?  Photoline...it doesn't get color management right although it is attempting to do so. Pixelmator, Acorn, etc. They assume Apple is handling the printer pipeline so they make no attempt whatsoever to offer rendering intent options.

Andrew, you have my highest respect, but we disagree on this one. At this stage of the digital imaging era, the Mac's Printer menu interface should have complete standardization and with the necessary rendering intent options.  We shouldn't be totally reliant on Adobe to give us a proper color managed workflow on the Mac.

Perhaps Apple's apparent oversight or dumbing down of rendering intent options is just more evidence of Apple's imposted obsolescence model where Apple believes the future of all human-readable text and imagery is nearly upon us and that it is essentially 100% digital display. If all images reside in an sRGB, aRGB, prophotoRGB universe of PCs, tablets, and smartphones, and electronic billboards, then Blackpoint compensation is no longer needed. All those digitally idealized tone reproduction curves assume that RGB 000 is pure black and needs no compensation.

cheers,
Mark

[digitaldog]

Photoline...it doesn't get color management right although it is attempting to do so. Pixelmator, Acorn, etc. They assume Apple is handling the printer pipeline so they make no attempt whatsoever to offer rendering intent options.

Apple should provide this but these vendors seem to be depending on it and are not doing what X-rite, Adobe and other's can and are doing in terms of color management. So ultimately it's their fault.