Canvas - poly-cotton vs cotton, whether to spray 1 side or both

[Justan]

That's great news. So there's plenty of it in stock, and capacity to make more if needed?

That is what was implied. I can get you the email address of the vendor if you’d like.

Better see how well this stuff works with aqueous varnish, then, and get the word out there! I know a lot of people have problems with cotton seeds in other canvases (apparently even including Lyve, which is otherwise the top-of-the-line canvas out there)

The seeds are a PITA and ruin a lot of work. I plan to make some tests of the media types i mentioned above, probably today, as part of a large print run I’m doing.

I'm not sure why manufacturers insist on coating inkjet canvas with gesso, anyway, apart from the fact that gesso is required for oil and acrylic paintings. It's not like printed canvases look painted anyhow, and it's not like gesso obscures the texture of the canvas significantly. It's just another layer that can crumble and crack as the canvas flexes, tightens and relaxes. Unless aqueous varnishes somehow penetrate through the gesso into the fibres themselves, stabilising both.

I suspect that convention plays a large role in how the canvas is manufactured, and I have to disagree with your comment about the look as thousands or more have asked me if my works are paintings. I glue the canvas to an underlayment and that vastly reduces the amount of flexing.

[shadowblade]

Really? I would have thought the lack of brush strokes and paint texture gave it away instantly.

[Justan]

A lot of paint and drawing artists produce near photo realism and concealing brush strokes and texture is part of that genre. Add to that the overwhelming number of “giclee” reproductions…

[shadowblade]

Have either of you noticed any seeds in the Kernewek fabric?

Any idea if www.freestylephoto.biz still have rolls of the St Ives/Monument Valley canvas left? They've listed rolls for every other canvas, but only sheets for Monument Valley.

[MHMG]

Might be worth getting a trial roll, then, and shining a UV lamp on it to see if it lights up. If it doesn't, then maybe follow it up with a window test against a sample of Lyve or other canvas/paper with known lightfastness, printed on the same printer, and seeing which one lasts longer.

Maybe I wasn't clear enough in my earlier remarks. The "explosionfocolors" fabrics that were sent to me were claimed to have no OBA. UV-included versus UV excluded spectrophotometer readings confirmed high fluorescence in the base and in the "infused coating".  UV backlight examination also confirmed high levels of fluorescence, so plenty of OBAs in the products. I followed up through my contacts to see if any OBA-free samples could be supplied. The manufacturer did not respond. End of story, and end of my interest in evaluating that product.  Kernewek St. Ives, in contrast, has no fluorescence in the substrate nor in the infused coating. It's a great product. I haven't had a seed problem, but I don't print on canvas much, so I haven't run through dozens of rolls, only a few. One roll had some wrinkles on one edge from a poor wind at the factory, but it didn't cause a printing issue, and the wrinkles came out nicely upon stretching. Some fraying at the roll edges compared to other canvas media, but that issue has not turned into problem, either.  Only thing I can really fault St. Ives and the other Kernewek fabrics for is relatively poor dmax (L*min ~ 22-25 depending on ink set), but that's seems to be a common attribute with many coated matte canvas offerings these days. Anyway, with a good ICC profile and the right image, I can make very lovely prints on St. Ives, and I've seen no canvas surface texture I like better, not BC Chromata white, not BC Lyve, not Hahnemuhle Daguerre (which BTW has OBAs), not Lexjet's sunset canvas or canvas matte by Frederix, etc., etc.

best,
Mark

[shadowblade]

Maybe I wasn't clear enough in my earlier remarks. The "explosionfocolors" fabrics that were sent to me were claimed to have no OBA. UV-included versus UV excluded spectrophotometer readings confirmed high fluorescence in the base and in the "infused coating".  UV backlight examination also confirmed high levels of fluorescence, so plenty of OBAs in the products. I followed up through my contacts to see if any OBA-free samples could be supplied. The manufacturer did not respond. End of story, and end of my interest in evaluating that product.  Kernewek St. Ives, in contrast, has no fluorescence in the substrate nor in the infused coating. It's a great product. I haven't had a seed problem, but I don't print on canvas much, so I haven't run through dozens of rolls, only a few. One roll had some wrinkles on one edge from a poor wind at the factory, but it didn't cause a printing issue, and the wrinkles came out nicely upon stretching. Some fraying at the roll edges compared to other canvas media, but that issue has not turned into problem, either.  Only thing I can really fault St. Ives and the other Kernewek fabrics for is relatively poor dmax (L*min ~ 22-25 depending on ink set), but that's seems to be a common attribute with many coated matte canvas offerings these days. Anyway, with a good ICC profile and the right image, I can make very lovely prints on St. Ives, and I've seen no canvas surface texture I like better, not BC Chromata white, not BC Lyve, not Hahnemuhle Daguerre (which BTW has OBAs), not Lexjet's sunset canvas or canvas matte by Frederix, etc., etc.

best,
Mark

Thanks.

It seems the dMax is still better than that of Lyve or other canvases, and, since you're always going to varnish a canvas anyway (with glossy varnish often bringing the dMax below 10) the uncoated dMax isn't as relevant as in a paper. I suspect applying a varnish would also solve the edge fraying problem.

Did you have any luck coating St Ives with Glamour II, Timeless or another aqueous varnish? Which black ink (MK or PK) do you use with it?

[shadowblade]

I heard back from them - looks like they do have St Ives/Monument Valley available in roll form. They confirmed again that Kernewek fabrics haven't been withdrawn from production - just that it's on hold at the moment, due to low demand and sufficient stock, but can be started up again at any time should the demand be there.

[samueljohnchia]

It seems the dMax is still better than that of Lyve or other canvases

Not really. The Lyve sample for Z3200 at Aardenburg has a original dmax of L*18.7. The K3 chromata white samples is about L*22.1. I'm also hitting about L*18 for Lyve on an iPF8400. So that's the same inks as what the Kernewek test samples were printed on.

I wouldn't fault Lyve for its dmax or gamut. But its plague of other problems is unforgivable. The excuses I get is Lyve is an organic product because its made with cotton. Rubbish. Its only 35% cotton. It is mostly a synthetic product if anything. 100% cotton papers have far less seeds and texture problems in general!

[shadowblade]

Not really. The Lyve sample for Z3200 at Aardenburg has a original dmax of L*18.7. The K3 chromata white samples is about L*22.1. I'm also hitting about L*18 for Lyve on an iPF8400. So that's the same inks as what the Kernewek test samples were printed on.

I wouldn't fault Lyve for its dmax or gamut. But its plague of other problems is unforgivable. The excuses I get is Lyve is an organic product because its made with cotton. Rubbish. Its only 35% cotton. It is mostly a synthetic product if anything. 100% cotton papers have far less seeds and texture problems in general!

Lyve with Epson K3VM inkset gave L*30.3.

Chromata White with K3VM gave L*28.0.

St Ives with K3VM gave L*26.7.

Naturally, these figures improve dramatically when coated (as canvas is designed to be).

[samueljohnchia]

Lyve with Epson K3VM inkset gave L*30.3.

Chromata White with K3VM gave L*28.0.

St Ives with K3VM gave L*26.7.

Naturally, these figures improve dramatically when coated (as canvas is designed to be).

The Chromata white an Lyve dmax numbers are bogus for the K3VM samples. Look at the media setting used for printing! Useless for comparison.

Media Setting: Media type = Premium Glossy Photo Paper (250)

The K3 inkset with Chromata sample is more like it. L*22.1, using matte black this time.

[MHMG]

The Chromata white an Lyve dmax numbers are bogus for the K3VM samples. Look at the media setting used for printing! Useless for comparison.

The K3 inkset with Chromata sample is more like it. L*22.1, using matte black this time.

Yes, I questioned the media setting choice, too, when the particular Chromata and Lyve canvas samples in question were submitted by an AaI&A member to the AaI&A digital print research program for testing. However, I went ahead with testing because this media setting was the manufacturer's recommended setting, and the profiles used by the member to print them were also supplied by BC. Go figure!

cheers,
mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com

[samueljohnchia]

Yes, I questioned the media setting choice, too, when the particular Chromata and Lyve canvas samples in question were submitted by an AaI&A member to the AaI&A digital print research program for testing. However, I went ahead with testing because this media setting was the manufacturer's recommended setting, and the profiles used by the member to print them were also supplied by BC. Go figure!

cheers,
mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com

Oh Mark, why are we not surprised? Breathing Color messed up again. Gotta get used to it.

[shadowblade]

Breathing Color make arguably the best inkjet coating on the market - its gamut is up there with the best, while it has better lightfastness than anything else out there, when compared against the same class of papers with the same inkset. And both their canvases and their papers are compatible with Timeless, for much better physical longevity.

It's a pity they can't source a consistent, high-quality base canvas to apply the coating to. Any idea if Hahnemuhle and other major canvas brands have the same problems with seeds?

[shadowblade]

^I will over the next few days. I have a monster of a show coming up and just ordered 3 gallons of goo (aka Glamour ii) and will use the samples along with other production.

The samples did not come with any instructions. With the HP I’ve never made a selection for the type of black I use. From what I read, matte is preferred for non glossy stock.

The media itself looks like cloth. One sample is a classic canvas weave and the other is akin to linen.

How did it go?

[heheapa]

I am printing with Hahnemuehle Monet Canvas and it's 100% cotton. I do observe the cotton seed in some print but it's not that serious to be an issue for me.
Personally I prefer the 100% cotton than poly cotton. It make my client feel better when holding a 100% cotton canvas than a poly cotton canvas.

I have used Hahnemuehle Varnish so far and just order a gallon of Timeless to try out. Anybody has experience on this?

[shadowblade]

I am printing with Hahnemuehle Monet Canvas and it's 100% cotton. I do observe the cotton seed in some print but it's not that serious to be an issue for me.
Personally I prefer the 100% cotton than poly cotton. It make my client feel better when holding a 100% cotton canvas than a poly cotton canvas.

I have used Hahnemuehle Varnish so far and just order a gallon of Timeless to try out. Anybody has experience on this?

Cotton has the tendency to sag in changing humidity, but those spring-loaded frames are great! No more sagging.

I find it interesting that I've never seen a cotton shirt or T-shit with cotton seeds, but find it in rolls of inkjet canvas.

[samueljohnchia]

I've just received a sample A4 pack containing one of each type of Kenewek Fabric. It's was lying around the Freestyle offices for a while so the surfaces are marred slightly. Otherwise, the weave of the fabrics look amazing. Far better than any canvas I've seen, and much more consistent. One doesn't need to look at a lot of it to know that the weave will be consistent. I always see weave variations over just a few inches in BC's canvases. No cotton seeds in the sheet. Too little media to test for the right media setting.

[shadowblade]

I've just received a sample A4 pack containing one of each type of Kenewek Fabric. It's was lying around the Freestyle offices for a while so the surfaces are marred slightly. Otherwise, the weave of the fabrics look amazing. Far better than any canvas I've seen, and much more consistent. One doesn't need to look at a lot of it to know that the weave will be consistent. I always see weave variations over just a few inches in BC's canvases. No cotton seeds in the sheet. Too little media to test for the right media setting.

No gesso makes it much easier to achieve consistency.

I'm just waiting to find out if it works with Glamour II (or Timeless) so that I don't end up shipping a roll all the way to Australia, only to find that I can't use it.

[samueljohnchia]

Why not request for a sample pack so you can see it for yourself? Or order a small box of cut sheets? The weave looks different enough in reality than the pictures in Aardenburg's reports.

When I find time I'll report back on spraying with glamour 2.

[shadowblade]

Why not request for a sample pack so you can see it for yourself? Or order a small box of cut sheets? The weave looks different enough in reality than the pictures in Aardenburg's reports.

When I find time I'll report back on spraying with glamour 2.

I've seen printed samples of it - that's how I caught onto this canvas in the first place.

Just that the shipping cost to get samples to Australia for testing exceeds the cost of the sample pack in the first place, so I'm relying on the experiences of those who are closer to the source...