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Author Topic: Open Source CMOS Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration  (Read 46310 times)

eronald

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Re: Open Source CMOS Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
« Reply #100 on: March 09, 2014, 10:24:23 pm »

What I really mean is that if the group which is really just Edmond and maybe one or two others then we have very limited options.  We can either try the CCD road and have a large sensor - even larger than what is available now or we can wait some years until larger CMOS sensors are available and cheap.  


Eric,

 You have stated the problem for MF users perfectly - and also explained why they have to pay atrocious prices.

 AFAIK, CCD and CMOS essentially cost the same price in large-ish sizes; the price is determined by chip area, not megapixels. The only thing is there are no large size CMOS chips available at the moment.
 
 However, AFAIK, CCD is essentially dead - the existing chips will be produced and reproduced, but no engineer who *I* know wants to go anywhere near that technology if they are not specialists; the lesson from the Aathon failure serves as a cautionary tale.  So Dalsa and Truesense have essentially *run out of new customers* for their smaller full-frame designs. The smallish interline designs are also going to get killed by the new generation CMOS chips with fast global shutters.

 The usual suspects who already have CCD camera backs and engineers who understand CCD electronics and calibration may release new backs based on similar or larger chips; the rumored existence of stocks of high quality but aging large format sensors may be persuasive in a market where a large-size back sells for an engineers annual income in Europe.  However as I say, I don't think any new entrant is going to go anywhere near the technology.

 My feeling is that now that the Omerta has been broken by Sony, and CMOSIS, the reigning large chip champions Dalsa and Truesense will of necessity release larger and fully digital chips to the general public, and the availability issues will solve themselves. They doubtless have some designs, but have not made them commercially available. I would expect such designs - at least small versions-  to appear within a matter of months. It is clear that their websites are already preparing the customers for the switchover.

Now, nobody with an ounce of sense in the civilian visible-light imaging community is going to budget for expensive analog engineering and shielding if a competing chip can be found that outputs digital data directly. You can see this revolt at Leica who moved away from the analog design of the M8 and M9 CCDs to a CMOSIS (Fillfactory) CMOS design, and got a simpler design problem, higher ISO, liveview and video as a result. I would expect the next S to lift a larger chip off the same shoulder :) Blackmagic seem to be using a smaller device from CMOSIS as well, with good commercial and practical success.

I may be wrong on all of the above. In any case I have a project which calls for looking at a CMOS design, and I will be setting up a lab experiment soon to gather some real-world experience.

This stuff is new to me, but I'm now gathering and organizing my information form an engineering perspective. I hope you will forgive me for my superficial treatment of what is doubtless a difficult topic.

I remain as always, your most humble servant.



Edmund
« Last Edit: March 09, 2014, 11:08:14 pm by eronald »
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EricWHiss

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Re: Open Source CMOS Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
« Reply #101 on: March 09, 2014, 11:59:02 pm »

Well as I have stated, I'm agnostic on the CCD vs CMOS position, but as CMOS sensors have made it to the photographic realm for more than 10 years but it was only this year that MF sized CMOS sensors have been made, I'm betting that it is not as clear cut as you describe it that CMOS is so clearly superior. But undoubtedly the market which wants video and live preview will force CMOS to the fore, possibly to the detriment of some still images. 

There are a lot of firms who specialize in integrating the CCD sensors - so I don't see the CCD electronics as something difficult that can be re-invented.
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eronald

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Re: Open Source CMOS Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
« Reply #102 on: March 10, 2014, 12:14:33 am »

Well as I have stated, I'm agnostic on the CCD vs CMOS position, but as CMOS sensors have made it to the photographic realm for more than 10 years but it was only this year that MF sized CMOS sensors have been made, I'm betting that it is not as clear cut as you describe it that CMOS is so clearly superior. But undoubtedly the market which wants video and live preview will force CMOS to the fore, possibly to the detriment of some still images.  

There are a lot of firms who specialize in integrating the CCD sensors - so I don't see the CCD electronics as something difficult that can be re-invented.

As digital backs now trade at a multiple of the prices of Medium format camera bodies eg. Rollei with good lenses and complex mechanics and electronics , I would say that the market disagrees with your assessment of availability of cheap labor. Nobody is stopping DHW from adding a back to their camera - but, feel free to hire your own engineering team, or just buy from Jenoptik like Leica and Sinar- I for one am going nowhere near a CCD design.

Eric, I'm tired, and I don't think you make sense.

Edmund

PS.

I forecast a drop in the price of CCD sensors, as the existing chip stocks get dumped. For all I know there will also be a glut of CCD design specialists on the market and a revival of the MF back niche.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2014, 12:26:54 am by eronald »
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Open Source CMOS Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
« Reply #103 on: March 10, 2014, 02:44:47 am »

Hi,

The obvious suggestion is that Eric collects a group of interested engineers to design a CCD based solution and Edmund continues with CMOS based design that he finds more practical.

Best regards
Erik


As digital backs now trade at a multiple of the prices of Medium format camera bodies eg. Rollei with good lenses and complex mechanics and electronics , I would say that the market disagrees with your assessment of availability of cheap labor. Nobody is stopping DHW from adding a back to their camera - but, feel free to hire your own engineering team, or just buy from Jenoptik like Leica and Sinar- I for one am going nowhere near a CCD design.

Eric, I'm tired, and I don't think you make sense.

Edmund

PS.

I forecast a drop in the price of CCD sensors, as the existing chip stocks get dumped. For all I know there will also be a glut of CCD design specialists on the market and a revival of the MF back niche.

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eronald

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Re: Open Source CMOS Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
« Reply #104 on: March 10, 2014, 02:55:52 am »

Hi,

The obvious suggestion is that Eric collects a group of interested engineers to design a CCD based solution and Edmund continues with CMOS based design that he finds more practical.

Best regards
Erik



Absolutely. We can have a common mechanical design so we interface with as many cameras as possible including of course the wonderful Rollei SLRs and .... TLRs.

Edmund
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haplo602

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Re: Open Source CMOS Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
« Reply #105 on: March 10, 2014, 03:25:07 am »

Edmund, the main problem with CCD vs CMOS is about now vs future. We do not know what the CMOS future will bring, however we know perfectly well what the CCD present can give us.

I guess you can hibernate this project for a few years untill more CMOS options become available or you can start protoryping on a 35mm chip.
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eronald

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Re: Open Source CMOS Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
« Reply #106 on: March 10, 2014, 04:13:57 am »

Edmund, the main problem with CCD vs CMOS is about now vs future. We do not know what the CMOS future will bring, however we know perfectly well what the CCD present can give us.

I guess you can hibernate this project for a few years untill more CMOS options become available or you can start protoryping on a 35mm chip.

Haplo,

Ah. The voice of reason has decided to visit LL. What a relief.
I do so agree with you.
You know, if I were asked whether I prefer CCD to CMOS I would reply CCD every day.
But unfortunately Speedbird aka. Concorde has been retired, as has the SR-71.
I have a good non-mf reason to prototype CMOS with a small chip anyway.

Edmund
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EricWHiss

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Re: Open Source CMOS Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
« Reply #107 on: March 10, 2014, 04:27:37 am »

As digital backs now trade at a multiple of the prices of Medium format camera bodies eg. Rollei with good lenses and complex mechanics and electronics , I would say that the market disagrees with your assessment of availability of cheap labor. Nobody is stopping DHW from adding a back to their camera - but, feel free to hire your own engineering team, or just buy from Jenoptik like Leica and Sinar- I for one am going nowhere near a CCD design.

Eric, I'm tired, and I don't think you make sense.

Edmund

PS.

I forecast a drop in the price of CCD sensors, as the existing chip stocks get dumped. For all I know there will also be a glut of CCD design specialists on the market and a revival of the MF back niche.


Woah, Edmund, you must have been tired!  No where have I mentioned cheap labor and I'm not working on a project for DHW anyhow - you are reading things into my words in your sleepiness. 

But in any case, I think you should move forward on your own as I don't think we have enough shared specifications to work on the same project and you might have to wait some years for the cmos anyhow!   ;)      by that time Erik K will have made his 20,000th post and still not learned how to pick out sarcasm when he sees it!  :o
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eronald

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Re: Open Source CMOS Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
« Reply #108 on: March 11, 2014, 01:09:39 am »

Woah, Edmund, you must have been tired!  No where have I mentioned cheap labor and I'm not working on a project for DHW anyhow - you are reading things into my words in your sleepiness.  

But in any case, I think you should move forward on your own as I don't think we have enough shared specifications to work on the same project and you might have to wait some years for the cmos anyhow!   ;)      by that time Erik K will have made his 20,000th post and still not learned how to pick out sarcasm when he sees it!  :o

By "on my own" I guess you mean without *you*. Sure, I will do exactly the same as Phase One and not support Rollei.

Edmund
« Last Edit: March 11, 2014, 01:20:04 am by eronald »
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Open Source Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
« Reply #109 on: March 11, 2014, 01:44:09 am »

Hi,

As a late comment, I would say that I would agree with Ken's points.

Initially, I felt that the crop factor was a bit large. But, a decent kit can be built around the sensor that can use many fine lenses. Regarding resolution I am pretty sure we will see something at 50MP+ coming from Sony, the sensor maker. Current APS-C designs top out at 24 MP and that would translate to 54 MP. As I have sensors of different pitches between 3.9 and 6.8 microns, I have done some experiments and I would say that it is absolutely the case that small pixels give better detail rendition in an area that is in absolute focus.

So, keeping up the resolution is a significant factor, but that is really up to the sensor makers.

Would a back be available at 10k (€) I would definitively be interested, as I feel a back like that makes a good combo with a technical camera.

Best regards
Erik


My opinion on the subject:

#1 The new camera / back MUST have Live View and a very nice screen on board. It should be a self-contained unit. No cables needed for power or anything but still have wifi for external control if desired and USB3 for tethering. (If its a hassle to use it people will just grab a A7R or D800E)
#2 The new camera / back MUST work with a wide range of lenses. Yes, from the excellent Canon TS-E II lenses to Rodenstock HR-W's. That should limit sensor size to about 54mmx40mm approx. but the does not rule out a smaller sensor like the one in the IQ250 since the Canon TS-E lenses are plenty wide enough to satisfy the wide angle needs of just about any user. This is HUGE, the A7R is already tapping into an extremely large number of Canon lens owners and doing well. It is a BIG market.
#3 The new camera / back MUST cost less than $10,000
#4 The new camera / back MUST have a sensor with at least 50MP and perform well in low light / long exposures and reasonably high iso. (anything less and people will just grab a A7R or D800E like they do now)

So, I am thinking that the new product should be a digital back like unit with a shutter unit in front (as short as possible) and with interchangeable lens mounts or adapters so that almost any lens can be used whether they have an integrated shutter or not. An optional external viewfinder would also be awesome (no need to design a new one just make the ones already available work) with viewing modes that aid manual focusing when off the tripod.

Think of it as a much more refined, compact and integrated (and affordable) FPS unit or Hartblei B1 camera that can be used handheld also if desired.
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synn

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Re: Open Source CMOS Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
« Reply #110 on: March 11, 2014, 07:42:42 am »

By "on my own" I guess you mean without *you*. Sure, I will do exactly the same as Phase One and not support Rollei.

Edmund

For someone with a Ph.D in their signature, your posts are unbelievably childish at times.
I can honestly say that the chances of DHW making its own back are higher than this pipe dream seeing the light of the day.

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eronald

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Re: Open Source CMOS Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
« Reply #111 on: March 11, 2014, 07:52:43 am »

I can honestly say that the chances of DHW making its own back are higher than this pipe dream seeing the light of the day.



Well, I certainly hope DHW makes a back of their own, since nobody seems to be promoting their camera.

In a way it's strange to see all these novelties in 4/3 priced at $300 or something, and then almost no products for people willing to pay $50K.

Edmund
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Christoph C. Feldhaim

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Re: Open Source CMOS Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
« Reply #112 on: March 11, 2014, 07:56:14 am »

Well, I certainly hope DHW makes a back of their own, since nobody seems to be promoting their camera.

In a way it's strange to see all these novelties in 4/3 priced at $300 or something, and then almost no products for people willing to pay $50K.

Edmund


Its called mass market, Edmund ... ;)
Its also one of the cruel reasons why they cut off aid money from the poor to consolidate their national budget, instead of taking from the rich.

Cheers
~Chris

eronald

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Re: Open Source CMOS Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
« Reply #113 on: March 11, 2014, 08:38:11 am »

Its called mass market, Edmund ... ;)
Its also one of the cruel reasons why they cut off aid money from the poor to consolidate their national budget, instead of taking from the rich.

Cheers
~Chris

Ah, you explain things so wonderfully, you guys at Goldmann Sachs really understand economics ;)

Edmund
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Christoph C. Feldhaim

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Re: Open Source CMOS Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
« Reply #114 on: March 11, 2014, 09:00:36 am »

Ah, you explain things so wonderfully, you guys at Goldmann Sachs really understand economics ;)

Edmund

LOL - I wish had the according salary to a Goldman-Sachs employee.
Just working in healthcare though ...
Cheers
~Chris

EricWHiss

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Re: Open Source CMOS Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
« Reply #115 on: March 11, 2014, 01:33:32 pm »

Edmund,
I'm sorry if there was a misunderstanding somewhere - it sounds like you are bit upset - no hard feelings here.   "You" was of course meant in the plural. 

Just to be clear - my interest in a project to build a custom digital back is purely personal as I have an interest in this for a long time. It would be awesome to have a big sensor because I think larger sensors have a different look - just like larger film formats do.    Rollei makes an ideal platform with good lenses for a large square but also Mamiya with their RZ and 7 series rangefinder.  Surely there are others too plus the technical cameras.    Actually I'd also like to see a 4x5 inch large format sensor.

My guess is that the business managers of the Phase, Sinar, Leaf's of the world, plus the sensor chip makers have all worked out the economics of doing such a project and decided that it isn't feasible otherwise we would see them doing these projects.

But it would be cool and I still think that the larger sensor is the final frontier for MFDB….
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Open Source CMOS Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
« Reply #116 on: March 11, 2014, 03:13:19 pm »

Hi Eric,

I can see that Edmund may be a bit confused, with your kind of comments it is not easy to know if you are sarcastic, ignorant, intolerant or serious.

Best regards
Erik

Edmund,
I'm sorry if there was a misunderstanding somewhere - it sounds like you are bit upset - no hard feelings here.   "You" was of course meant in the plural.  

Just to be clear - my interest in a project to build a custom digital back is purely personal as I have an interest in this for a long time. It would be awesome to have a big sensor because I think larger sensors have a different look - just like larger film formats do.    Rollei makes an ideal platform with good lenses for a large square but also Mamiya with their RZ and 7 series rangefinder.  Surely there are others too plus the technical cameras.    Actually I'd also like to see a 4x5 inch large format sensor.

My guess is that the business managers of the Phase, Sinar, Leaf's of the world, plus the sensor chip makers have all worked out the economics of doing such a project and decided that it isn't feasible otherwise we would see them doing these projects.

But it would be cool and I still think that the larger sensor is the final frontier for MFDB….

« Last Edit: March 11, 2014, 03:33:57 pm by ErikKaffehr »
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EricWHiss

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Re: Open Source CMOS Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
« Reply #117 on: March 11, 2014, 05:41:12 pm »

Ah Edmund,
I see that you have appointed Erik K as your spokesperson?  

Erik wait for your cues, please!  When I address a post to "The chicken little of color aliasing", that's when you are supposed to answer next, okay?  :P
« Last Edit: March 11, 2014, 06:23:27 pm by EricWHiss »
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eronald

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Re: Open Source CMOS Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
« Reply #118 on: March 11, 2014, 08:23:29 pm »

Ah Edmund,
I see that you have appointed Erik K as your spokesperson?  

Erik wait for your cues, please!  When I address a post to "The chicken little of color aliasing", that's when you are supposed to answer next, okay?  :P

Eric,

 I don't need a spokesperson, I have me own big mouth!

 Thx for your private message. Actually, I phoned one of the companies you cited, Illunis. These are electronic dragonslayers of the first order; but they explained that they do computer-tethered cameras with no postprocessing of the images.

 Prices seem commensurate with the value of their work, if I understand rightly you can buy a big chip back for $15K. If you ever order something from them, tell me in advance and I'll try and help spec a back that can become autonomous later rather than tethered.

 I expect that I can make a CMOS back for $10K less than they can, if I can get the chips.

 
Edmund
« Last Edit: March 11, 2014, 08:27:29 pm by eronald »
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haplo602

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Re: Open Source CMOS Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
« Reply #119 on: March 12, 2014, 09:59:30 am »

Haplo,

Ah. The voice of reason has decided to visit LL. What a relief.
I do so agree with you.
You know, if I were asked whether I prefer CCD to CMOS I would reply CCD every day.
But unfortunately Speedbird aka. Concorde has been retired, as has the SR-71.
I have a good non-mf reason to prototype CMOS with a small chip anyway.

Edmund

oh well ...

:mouth wide shut:
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