Pages: [1]   Go Down

Author Topic: OBA-free high-gloss papers  (Read 5206 times)

shadowblade

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2839
OBA-free high-gloss papers
« on: February 23, 2014, 11:27:20 pm »

I'm looking for a high-gloss paper option for prints, to go with Arches Hot Press (uncoated) as my matte option and Hahnemuhle Photo Rag Pearl as a lustre option.

Does anyone know of a high-gloss paper with good longevity ratings which is fibre-based rather than RC and not loaded with OBAs?

I don't mean Hahnemuhle Photo Rag Pearl or similar, with a stippled, semi-gloss finish. I'm after a high-gloss, Cibachrome-like mirror finish.

Or is the best option still printing on matte and applying a few layers of Timeless for a high-gloss finish?
Logged

bill t.

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3011
    • http://www.unit16.net
Re: OBA-free high-gloss papers
« Reply #1 on: February 24, 2014, 12:16:04 am »

You'll never get a mirror smooth finish with any kind of applied coating on any matte paper.  It will always show some texture, ripple, or stipple, or whatever you want to call it.  Well done gloss coatings can be quite elegant like the old "F" surface, but mirror smooth is probably beyond reach.

The new Cibachrome is facemounting, in all its funhouse mirrored majesty.
Logged

shadowblade

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2839
Re: OBA-free high-gloss papers
« Reply #2 on: February 24, 2014, 12:58:57 am »

You'll never get a mirror smooth finish with any kind of applied coating on any matte paper.  It will always show some texture, ripple, or stipple, or whatever you want to call it.  Well done gloss coatings can be quite elegant like the old "F" surface, but mirror smooth is probably beyond reach.

The new Cibachrome is facemounting, in all its funhouse mirrored majesty.

F-surface glossiness would be a good start. I wonder if it would be possible to achieve a mirror finish by spraying a high-gloss coating onto matte paper, then ferrotyping it.

Such a pity all the high-gloss papers are RC and loaded with OBAs...
Logged

hugowolf

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1001
Re: OBA-free high-gloss papers
« Reply #3 on: February 24, 2014, 01:10:33 am »

The closest I have come to that is Harman Gloss Baryta, but it fails on both criteria: it has OBA content (even with the Warmtone) and there is some, although minor, surface texture.

What inks and what success rate are you having with Arches Hot Pressed? I only ask because some fine art papers work well with my inkset, and others, especially Bristol papers don’t seem to work at all.

Have you looked at Ersnt Dinkla’s Spectrum Viz? It is a great starting point for this sort of exercise.

Brian A
Logged

shadowblade

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2839
Re: OBA-free high-gloss papers
« Reply #4 on: February 24, 2014, 02:46:58 am »

The closest I have come to that is Harman Gloss Baryta, but it fails on both criteria: it has OBA content (even with the Warmtone) and there is some, although minor, surface texture.

What inks and what success rate are you having with Arches Hot Pressed? I only ask because some fine art papers work well with my inkset, and others, especially Bristol papers don’t seem to work at all.

Have you looked at Ersnt Dinkla’s Spectrum Viz? It is a great starting point for this sort of exercise.

Brian A


Arches Hot Press seems to work very well with both Piezography and MIS Eboni, with a Dmax of 1.58-1.6 (about the same as many matte papers). By attaching a strip heater to the printer's platen, to heat the platen and media to 50 degrees Celcius (like a solvent printer) I think this could be pushed up a fair bit, to 1.7 or so, since the faster drying means I'd be able to increase the ink limit without increasing the dot gain or ink absorption.

Haven't tried it with colour yet, but the American Inkjet Systems Ultramax inks look promising (I've got some on the way). Muddy colours (due to dot gain and absorption from overinking and slow drying) and low gamut (due to restricting the ink limit, and thus the pigment deposited, to counteract overinking) are the usual problems with Arches. But Ultramax inks have a higher pigment load than Epson/Canon/HP inks (hence their wider gamut), depositing more pigment for the same amount of ink (i.e. you get more colour out of the same ink limit). I'm hoping that, by using more concentrated inks and a higher temperature to hasten drying, I can push the gamut to the same level as that of matte paper.

After all, Iris prints are made on plain paper and look perfectly fine.
Logged

Ernst Dinkla

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4005
Re: OBA-free high-gloss papers
« Reply #5 on: February 24, 2014, 03:26:14 am »

If RC is banned then film is no option either I guess. There is a Photolux Synthetic Paper Gloss (polypropylene) film without OBA and with a nice gloss but not a high gloss. Near neutral, high white reflectance. All the other high gloss PET film qualities have OBA more or less.

The Innova IFA59 Fibaprint Super Glazed 285 gsm has OBAs but fits your description at other aspects. Baryta content, slightly cooler than neutral. I got the impression it is no longer distributed so it ended in the Obsolete list of SpectrumViz. The name describes the gloss well.
Keith has a review on it: http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/reviews/paper/innova_fibaprint_glazed.html

--
Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
January 2014, 600+ inkjet media white spectral plots.

Logged

JohnBrew

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 868
    • http://www.johnbrewton.zenfolio.com
Re: OBA-free high-gloss papers
« Reply #6 on: February 24, 2014, 07:29:28 am »

Ilford Gold Fibre Silk. There is still some around at the dealers even though I understand production has stopped. I bought a large supply which should hold me through this year. The Harman still produces the best high-gloss finish imo, but previous use problems keep me away.

shadowblade

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2839
Re: OBA-free high-gloss papers
« Reply #7 on: February 24, 2014, 07:45:49 am »

If RC is banned then film is no option either I guess. There is a Photolux Synthetic Paper Gloss (polypropylene) film without OBA and with a nice gloss but not a high gloss. Near neutral, high white reflectance. All the other high gloss PET film qualities have OBA more or less.

Somehow, I don't think galleries and high-paying clients will accept a printed plastic sheet. Also, from what I've seen of other films, their print permanence leaves something to be desired.

Quote
The Innova IFA59 Fibaprint Super Glazed 285 gsm has OBAs but fits your description at other aspects. Baryta content, slightly cooler than neutral. I got the impression it is no longer distributed so it ended in the Obsolete list of SpectrumViz. The name describes the gloss well.
Keith has a review on it: http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/reviews/paper/innova_fibaprint_glazed.html

Is it a large amount of OBAs, or a small amount only in the paper base? Either way, I don't think it's available any more.

Ilford Gold Fibre Silk. There is still some around at the dealers even though I understand production has stopped. I bought a large supply which should hold me through this year. The Harman still produces the best high-gloss finish imo, but previous use problems keep me away.

I should have added 'no Barytas' to the list! Apart from a few (e.g. Hahnemuhle Photo Rag Baryta, which I occasionally use) they're generally too fragile. I've only ever used IGFS as proofing paper - for a final product, it's far too fragile. Even coming straight off the roll, it already appears full of (microscopic) cracks).
Logged

Ernst Dinkla

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4005
Re: OBA-free high-gloss papers
« Reply #8 on: February 24, 2014, 12:00:45 pm »

No RCs, No Baryta, No OBA, No Film, wonder what is left then if it has to have gloss :-)


--
Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
January 2014, 600+ inkjet media white spectral plots.
Logged

shadowblade

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2839
Re: OBA-free high-gloss papers
« Reply #9 on: February 24, 2014, 01:09:57 pm »

No RCs, No Baryta, No OBA, No Film, wonder what is left then if it has to have gloss :-)


--
Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
January 2014, 600+ inkjet media white spectral plots.

I did have one customer who ordered dye-sub metal prints and matted them with exotic leather mats, prior to glassless framing...
Logged

Wayne Fox

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4237
    • waynefox.com
Re: OBA-free high-gloss papers
« Reply #10 on: February 24, 2014, 02:24:33 pm »

I did have one customer who ordered dye-sub metal prints and matted them with exotic leather mats, prior to glassless framing...
nice look, but longevity pretty questionable there (see this, note they are comparing only to chemical prints, note the test was actually done by the maker of the panels not an independent tester, and finally notice how the magenta fades at a different rate than the other colors ... they may shift green).   

You’ll get longer results from OBA glossy paper or products like FujiFlex.  I’m not sure what difference it make if it’s “plastic” or “paper”.  If you want the look you use what gives you the look.  Paper just can’t be as smooth as resin embedded paper or film.

As Ernst says : “No RCs, No Baryta, No OBA, No Film, wonder what is left then if it has to have gloss”
Logged

shadowblade

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2839
Re: OBA-free high-gloss papers
« Reply #11 on: February 24, 2014, 02:34:34 pm »

nice look, but longevity pretty questionable there (see this, note they are comparing only to chemical prints, note the test was actually done by the maker of the panels not an independent tester, and finally notice how the magenta fades at a different rate than the other colors ... they may shift green).   

You’ll get longer results from OBA glossy paper or products like FujiFlex.  I’m not sure what difference it make if it’s “plastic” or “paper”.  If you want the look you use what gives you the look.  Paper just can’t be as smooth as resin embedded paper or film.

As Ernst says : “No RCs, No Baryta, No OBA, No Film, wonder what is left then if it has to have gloss”

No doubt the longevity isn't as good as pigment prints, and I definitely wouldn't offer metal as an archival solution. Nevertheless, it should last as long as Fujiflex, while being much more physically durable, not to mention less expensive.

Maybe applying a perfectly-smooth layer of Timeless is the best solution at the moment, until someone decides to make an OBA-free high-gloss paper.
Logged

spacegrey

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 22
Re: OBA-free high-gloss papers
« Reply #12 on: February 25, 2014, 09:08:46 am »

Could BC Vibrance Baryta be considered "high gloss" paper?
It's OBA free.
Logged

shadowblade

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2839
Re: OBA-free high-gloss papers
« Reply #13 on: February 25, 2014, 10:18:07 am »

With few exceptions, I avoid baryta papers due to their physical fragility - it's a thin, brittle layer that cracks very easily, even when coming off the roll. Sure, the cracks are microscopic, but I'm not confident of their long-term stability. For semi-gloss papers, Hahnemuhle Photo Rag Pearl and Museo Silver Rag are great alternatives to baryta that are much more physically durable. I've yet to find one for high gloss...
Logged

hugowolf

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1001
Re: OBA-free high-gloss papers
« Reply #14 on: February 25, 2014, 09:40:26 pm »

With few exceptions, I avoid baryta papers due to their physical fragility - it's a thin, brittle layer that cracks very easily, even when coming off the roll. Sure, the cracks are microscopic, but I'm not confident of their long-term stability. For semi-gloss papers, Hahnemuhle Photo Rag Pearl and Museo Silver Rag are great alternatives to baryta that are much more physically durable. I've yet to find one for high gloss...

Museo Silver Rag is a baryta paper - it has a barium sulfate coating. And Harman Gloss Baryta (formally Harman FB Al - fibre base with alumina), is a soft, but still full gloss paper. Iti s unfortunate that even the natural version still contains some OBA content.

Brian A
Logged

Damir

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 237
Re: OBA-free high-gloss papers
« Reply #15 on: February 26, 2014, 01:39:46 am »

With few exceptions, I avoid baryta papers due to their physical fragility - it's a thin, brittle layer that cracks very easily, even when coming off the roll. Sure, the cracks are microscopic, but I'm not confident of their long-term stability. For semi-gloss papers, Hahnemuhle Photo Rag Pearl and Museo Silver Rag are great alternatives to baryta that are much more physically durable. I've yet to find one for high gloss...

We have over 100 years old clasic B&W in our collection that proves long term mechanical stability. Some of the pictures from 1926. was found on the attic in which they spent over 60 years without any protection, exposed to extreme changes of humidity and temperature (from - 25 Celsius to + 50 Celsius).

Question is for how long will survive ink absorption coating. During my non-scientific test in which I expose different paper to strong sun, and atmosphere including the rain and moisture, in which I just taping printed photos on outside of the window, ink absorption layer just drop off from surface of paper together with pigments which was on top of it.

Pigments coped just fine, when I compare test prints with reference prints they looked fine (HP Z3100 ink) but when I started to remove prints fom window surface most of the coating just drop off from paper surface - I got mixture of fine white powder and pigments.
Logged

shadowblade

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2839
Re: OBA-free high-gloss papers
« Reply #16 on: February 26, 2014, 04:10:46 am »

We have over 100 years old clasic B&W in our collection that proves long term mechanical stability. Some of the pictures from 1926. was found on the attic in which they spent over 60 years without any protection, exposed to extreme changes of humidity and temperature (from - 25 Celsius to + 50 Celsius).

Question is for how long will survive ink absorption coating. During my non-scientific test in which I expose different paper to strong sun, and atmosphere including the rain and moisture, in which I just taping printed photos on outside of the window, ink absorption layer just drop off from surface of paper together with pigments which was on top of it.

Pigments coped just fine, when I compare test prints with reference prints they looked fine (HP Z3100 ink) but when I started to remove prints fom window surface most of the coating just drop off from paper surface - I got mixture of fine white powder and pigments.

This is why I like to print on uncoated paper where possible and am investing in an Epson printer using ultra wide gamut inksets in order to improve saturation on uncoated papers. I'm hoping to be able to match standard HP or Epson K3 output on matte paper, while printing on uncoated media. It should also exceed the gamut of the four-colour process of Iris printers (which use plain paper) while using long-lasting pigments, as opposed to Iris' dyes.

From what I've seen so far, microporous layers hold pigment well, but crack and buckle microscopically under heavy ink load and embrittle easily under UV or ozone attack - much more so than pigments.
Logged

Paul Roark

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 398
Re: OBA-free high-gloss papers
« Reply #17 on: February 26, 2014, 11:02:18 am »

Regarding inkjet coating longevity, see http://www.dp3project.org/preservation#crackinginkjetlight .

I'm a big fan of Arches Hot Press uncoated watercolor paper also for "full sheet" (22 by 30 inches) B&W prints where collectors want the best longevity.  I doubt there is a glossy equivalent.  I've used Museo Silver Rag (no OBAs) with 100% carbon (MIS) for a "sepia" tone museum project, but it's not a high gloss medium, and I'm not convinced any coated or laminated substrate is going to last as long as Arches.  Then again, most don't care. 

Frankly, I went the other route -- having 2 distinct products with, very intentionally, a large gap between them to separate the product.  My two media are, first, carbon pigments for the high end, and, second, B&W dyes on Red River Polar Pearl Metallic paper for the majority of our Gallery Los Olivos buyers who don't care about the long run.  My current project is to increase the longevity of the dyes by (oddly) increasing the color dye content. 

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com
Logged

Wayne Fox

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4237
    • waynefox.com
Re: OBA-free high-gloss papers
« Reply #18 on: February 26, 2014, 01:22:53 pm »

No doubt the longevity isn't as good as pigment prints, and I definitely wouldn't offer metal as an archival solution. Nevertheless, it should last as long as Fujiflex, while being much more physically durable, not to mention less expensive.

Maybe applying a perfectly-smooth layer of Timeless is the best solution at the moment, until someone decides to make an OBA-free high-gloss paper.
You are right about the durability aspect, but since we do not know which papers were tested against the aluminum panels and there is a wide disparity in the amount they fade, the test is pretty flawed and for all we know they tested more than 4 photo papers and just left out the ones that did better.  It appears nothing was done to protect the photo prints  in a normal display manner, either face mounted or protected by UV acrylic or glass which has a substantial impact on FujiFlex longevity.

Additionally if you look at the fading chart in the report, you will notice the magenta fades at a much faster rate and there is a pretty large disparity between it's fading and other colors.  This type of fading reminds me of some of the early inkjet projects in the 90's using Iris printers.  Seems a green shift is very possible.

So I don't have an answer, and you may be right, but I wouldn't bet the farm on the aluminum not fading objectionably before correctly mounted and protected FujiFlex.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2014, 01:26:16 pm by Wayne Fox »
Logged

shadowblade

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2839
Re: OBA-free high-gloss papers
« Reply #19 on: February 27, 2014, 01:53:47 am »

Regarding inkjet coating longevity, see http://www.dp3project.org/preservation#crackinginkjetlight .

I'm a big fan of Arches Hot Press uncoated watercolor paper also for "full sheet" (22 by 30 inches) B&W prints where collectors want the best longevity.  I doubt there is a glossy equivalent.  I've used Museo Silver Rag (no OBAs) with 100% carbon (MIS) for a "sepia" tone museum project, but it's not a high gloss medium, and I'm not convinced any coated or laminated substrate is going to last as long as Arches.  Then again, most don't care. 

Frankly, I went the other route -- having 2 distinct products with, very intentionally, a large gap between them to separate the product.  My two media are, first, carbon pigments for the high end, and, second, B&W dyes on Red River Polar Pearl Metallic paper for the majority of our Gallery Los Olivos buyers who don't care about the long run.  My current project is to increase the longevity of the dyes by (oddly) increasing the color dye content. 

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

I've seen the articles on that website and have seen inket layers crack or delaminate after just a few months of a 'window test' (albeit in the Australian sun), which is why I've been looking into uncoated papers, as well as 'coated' papers which have the inkjet coating soaked into them like a sizing agent, rather than applied over the surface as a single layer. (like Hawk Mountain's Red Tail paper, which is no longer available). The challenge with colour prints is producing the same saturation and depth, while subject to the dot gain and lower ink loads needed for uncoated paper. Iris prints - a 4-colour dye process - show that this can be done.

IMO printing for maximum longevity is a completely different challenge to printing for incremental increases in Dmax and saturation, and one that has been sadly neglected in the current throwaway, 5-minute-attention-span world of high-impact, fluorescent advertising, where everyone strives for maximum 'pop' over other concerns. But it's a worthwhile challenge, even though the rewards won't be seen now, but 100 years down the track.
Logged
Pages: [1]   Go Up