digital back prices

[eronald]

Eric, the first thing to do here is to get some concrete knowledge of the CMOS chip abilities. Sony have a semiconductor division which SELLS these things, but I cannot yet find a datasheet etc on the MF sensor Maybe someone here has an idea how one gets the info?

Truesense (ex Kodak) and Dalsa  sell devkits, and datasheets are posted on the web, so it's feasible (for an engineer) to figure out how much engineering effort is needed to use their products.  

http://www.truesenseimaging.com/support/evaluation-hardware/cmos-evaluation-hardware



I am sure with your help one could convert some scrap Rollei bodies into testbeds.

If and when TrueSense or Dalsa bring out an MF CMOS chip that is released to the public with a devkit, things will get much easier for "hobbyists".

Edmund

I bet that you are right about the 'hidden' talents viewing these threads.  I'm sure a LuLa forum team could be put assembled to design and build our own digital backs.  Why not?  Quite seriously, count me in on this idea.  Who else?

[synn]

I find this whole conversation, well, funny and comical.  The fact that so many people are upset with the price of a high end camera system and at the same time discuss how the quality is not that much better than what you can get with a Nikon or Sony just gives me a good laugh.  If the latter is true, why do you care how much the damn thing cost?  

Personally I dislike everything about 35mm DSLRs.  I am not trolling the 35mm forums, bashing Nikon and Canon for their crappy lenses, the fact they really only have one type of camera design, that the 2:3 aspect ratio does not work well for commercial ad space (and is pretty bad for vertical shots anayway), no lenses that have leaf shutters, not being able to do true multiple exposures, etc.  

I like using MF, I don't like the price, but I rack it up to the cost of doing business and move on.  I have more important things to worry about.  And in the grand scheme of things, $35K for a business purchase is not that much.

I also find it funny that there so many people on this forum who do not have a good business sense.  I read the comments on the prices of components, like the sensor, and see nowhere people talking about the R&D that goes into the system and needs to be recovered.  PhaseOne employees people and pays them a salary.  Many of these people work countless hours designing, engineering and assembling the backs.  Those hours and those salaries need to be recovered.  Not to mention, finding, employing and retaining the best at what they do is, usually, expensive.  Also, every business needs to take into account marketing and pay for it somehow.  None of these figures are shown in the price of raw material costs alone.

+1

Excellent post.

[JV]

I find this whole conversation, well, funny and comical.  The fact that so many people are upset with the price of a high end camera system and at the same time discuss how the quality is not that much better than what you can get with a Nikon or Sony just gives me a good laugh.  If the latter is true, why do you care how much the damn thing cost?  

Personally I dislike everything about 35mm DSLRs.  I am not trolling the 35mm forums, bashing Nikon and Canon for their crappy lenses, the fact they really only have one type of camera design, that the 2:3 aspect ratio does not work well for commercial ad space (and is pretty bad for vertical shots anayway), no lenses that have leaf shutters, not being able to do true multiple exposures, etc.  

I like using MF, I don't like the price, but I rack it up to the cost of doing business and move on.  I have more important things to worry about.  And in the grand scheme of things, $35K for a business purchase is not that much.

I also find it funny that there so many people on this forum who do not have a good business sense.  I read the comments on the prices of components, like the sensor, and see nowhere people talking about the R&D that goes into the system and needs to be recovered.  PhaseOne employees people and pays them a salary.  Many of these people work countless hours designing, engineering and assembling the backs.  Those hours and those salaries need to be recovered.  Not to mention, finding, employing and retaining the best at what they do is, usually, expensive.  Also, every business needs to take into account marketing and pay for it somehow.  None of these figures are shown in the price of raw material costs alone.

+1

Excellent post.

Not really relevant within the context of this thread though…

The OP has made it abundantly clear that that he is talking about non-professionals. 

If you can fit MFD into your business model then that's fine but that is not what this thread is about.

[RichDesmond]

Not really relevant within the context of this thread though…

The OP has made it abundantly clear that that he is talking about non-professionals. 

If you can fit MFD into your business model then that's fine but that is not what this thread is about.

The last paragraph (which is the crux of it IMO) is relevant, no matter who the target buyer is. Low volume businesses have to have very healthy margins over and above the component parts, or they don't cover their costs and they go out of business.

I own a company that sells motorcycle fork springs. Simple, low tech product. The steel in them costs a few dollars. They sell for $80. And we're the low price seller in that market, by quite a bit.
Most people just have no clue what it costs to keep the doors open.

[BernardLanguillier]

I bet that you are right about the 'hidden' talents viewing these threads.  I'm sure a LuLa forum team could be put assembled to design and build our own digital backs.  Why not?  Quite seriously, count me in on this idea.  Who else?

Now in jest -  when we did have success, there are plenty of other forum participants anxiously waiting to analyze the RAW files from our product and compare it to the next NiCanSon product and tell us how we could have done better.

It would probably be best to start this as an open source project in order to define the specs, and come up with a matching high level design. The costs would be reasonably low in that phase and I am sure that those interested could mostly cover these trivial costs themselves.

The key success factors would probably be:
- Collect the right inputs from potential customers,
- Have the right skills in the team,
- Use the right collaborative design platform to come up with the design.

Kickstarter could come as a second phase when the need arises to actually build them, which includes ordering a few thousand sensors from Sony and more stuff from other vendors.

It is anybodies guess how cheap this could be done.

Cheers,
Bernard

[JV]

Low volume businesses have to have very healthy margins over and above the component parts, or they don't cover their costs and they go out of business.

I don't disagree but that's the other part of the discussion.  Do the volumes have to be so low?

Even the dealers here on the forum seem to think that volumes are low by choice.  Volumes are low because Phase is not willing to throw open the market.

It is obviously their good right to do so but likewise it is also the good right of current, potential and ex-customers to voice their opinion and say that they don't particularly like that.

The market is also such now that for standalone backs Phase One has a monopoly.  

As a monopolist they can do and charge what they want.  And they do… Don't expect most people to be wildly enthusiastic about that…  It is just not a healthy situation...

[eronald]

Bernard, I've taken your suggestion and started a thread to explore the idea of an open source back.

The open source model worked well for phones, so I guess it might work for cameras.

I wonder if you could be so nice as to try and get information from Sony on the devkit for their MF CMOS sensor? I expect they will sell a cheap version with a "dud" engineering grade sensor.

Edmund

It would probably be best to start this as an open source project in order to define the specs, and come up with a matching high level design. The costs would be reasonably low in that phase and I am sure that those interested could mostly cover these trivial costs themselves.

The key success factors would probably be:
- Collect the right inputs from potential customers,
- Have the right skills in the team,
- Use the right collaborative design platform to come up with the design.

Kickstarter could come as a second phase when the need arises to actually build them, which includes ordering a few thousand sensors from Sony and more stuff from other vendors.

It is anybodies guess how cheap this could be done.

Cheers,
Bernard