Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5   Go Down

Author Topic: digital back prices  (Read 14825 times)

ndevlin

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 679
    • Follow me on Twitter
Re: digital back prices
« Reply #60 on: February 24, 2014, 09:37:57 am »


Phase Backs cost what they cost because they can.  They have "taught" the marketplace that this is what MF costs, and will fight like a cornered wolverine to protect that concept (myth).   This has been relatively easy until recently, since no one has been around to prove them wrong. 

The Sony chip may well change that. This chip is a cost-effective consumer-electronics item. Pentax will 'weaponize' it into a camera two generations ahead of what Phase and Hassy peddle, sell it for $10K and make a tidy profit on every unit.

But that alone won't change the market, bc Pentax lacks (i) a lot of core pro functionality like tethering, (ii) a decent lens line-up at a good price and (iii) tech/dealer support.  This is what allows the other two to keep the ante high.

Today, I would have a very hard time constructing a rational purchase-case for a new Phase or Hassy at retail prices for anyone other than a rental house.  But of course, purchasing cameras is anything but a rational decision.  Desire, ego, and a myriad of other more powerful forces drive these choices.  Fortunately for these companies, there are enough potential buyers for whom money is a tertiary concern, that the racket holds, for now. 

- N.
Logged
Nick Devlin   @onelittlecamera        ww

eronald

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6642
    • My gallery on Instagram
Re: digital back prices
« Reply #61 on: February 24, 2014, 09:39:33 am »

This is tiring - if y'all feel so angry about this, then put up a kickstarter campaign to design a back for the old Hassies, or a new mirrorless  steel box with liveview using the Hassy or even AF Rollei or AF Contax lenses, and I'll be in line to contribute a few $ in exchange for for one of the first units.

In fact, send me a working physical unit and I'll even write the firmware for myself -  I suspect that quite a few people on this forum have at least my skills and would be willing to participate - and some of my friends would do the Raw software and stitching. After all, photography can be a hobby as much as a job :)

Edmund
« Last Edit: February 24, 2014, 10:10:27 am by eronald »
Logged
If you appreciate my blog posts help me by following on https://instagram.com/edmundronald

JV

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1013
Re: digital back prices
« Reply #62 on: February 24, 2014, 09:54:06 am »

This tiring - if y'all feel so angry about this, then put up a kickstarter campaign to design a back for the old Hassies, or a new mirrorless  steel box with liveview using the Hassy or even AF Rollei or AF Contax lenses, and I'll be in line to contribute a few $ in exchange for for one of the first units.

In fact, send me a working physical unit and I'll even write the firmware for myself -  I suspect that quite a few people on this forum have at least my skills and would be willing to participate - and some of my friends would do the Raw software and stitching. After all, photography can be a hobby as much as a job :)

Edmund

Perhaps not exactly what you had in mind... :)

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/96793993/hasselnuts-hasselblad-camera-iphone-digitalback-ki

Logged

Steve Hendrix

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1662
    • http://www.captureintegration.com/
Re: digital back prices
« Reply #63 on: February 24, 2014, 09:56:17 am »

Phase Backs cost what they cost because they can.  They have "taught" the marketplace that this is what MF costs, and will fight like a cornered wolverine to protect that concept (myth).   This has been relatively easy until recently, since no one has been around to prove them wrong. 

The Sony chip may well change that. This chip is a cost-effective consumer-electronics item. Pentax will 'weaponize' it into a camera two generations ahead of what Phase and Hassy peddle, sell it for $10K and make a tidy profit on every unit.

But that alone won't change the market, bc Pentax lacks (i) a lot of core pro functionality like tethering, (ii) a decent lens line-up at a good price and (iii) tech/dealer support.  This is what allows the other two to keep the ante high.

Today, I would have a very hard time constructing a rational purchase-case for a new Phase or Hassy at retail prices for anyone other than a rental house.  But of course, purchasing cameras is anything but a rational decision.  Desire, ego, and a myriad of other more powerful forces drive these choices.  Fortunately for these companies, there are enough potential buyers for whom money is a tertiary concern, that the racket holds, for now. 

- N.


The racket - nice.

Pentax and who knows who else, don't compete with Phase One. They are potential competitors. For now, they're not. We'll see.


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration

Logged
Steve Hendrix • 404-543-8475 www.captureintegration.com (e-mail Me)
Phase One | Leaf | Leica | Alpa | Cambo | Sinar | Arca Swiss

eronald

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6642
    • My gallery on Instagram
Re: digital back prices
« Reply #64 on: February 24, 2014, 10:12:26 am »

+1 Unfortunately, I must agree with you.
I say unfortunately because Steve and Doug are nice guys.

Edmund

Phase Backs cost what they cost because they can.  They have "taught" the marketplace that this is what MF costs, and will fight like a cornered wolverine to protect that concept (myth).   This has been relatively easy until recently, since no one has been around to prove them wrong.

- N.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2014, 10:14:30 am by eronald »
Logged
If you appreciate my blog posts help me by following on https://instagram.com/edmundronald

ndevlin

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 679
    • Follow me on Twitter
Re: digital back prices
« Reply #65 on: February 24, 2014, 10:23:39 am »

The racket - nice.

Don't worry Steve, I won't indict you.  ;)  I'm happy when good people can make a living.  Some people seem genuinely angered  by the price. I'm not one of them. I'm amused at most, so none of this is personal. 

Quote

Pentax and who knows who else, don't compete with Phase One. They are potential competitors. For now, they're not. We'll see.

Exactly. It's fun to watch. 
 
Logged
Nick Devlin   @onelittlecamera        ww

JoeKitchen

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5022
Re: digital back prices
« Reply #66 on: February 24, 2014, 10:46:50 am »

I find this whole conversation, well, funny and comical.  The fact that so many people are upset with the price of a high end camera system and at the same time discuss how the quality is not that much better than what you can get with a Nikon or Sony just gives me a good laugh.  If the latter is true, why do you care how much the damn thing cost?  

Personally I dislike everything about 35mm DSLRs.  I am not trolling the 35mm forums, bashing Nikon and Canon for their crappy lenses, the fact they really only have one type of camera design, that the 2:3 aspect ratio does not work well for commercial ad space (and is pretty bad for vertical shots anayway), no lenses that have leaf shutters, not being able to do true multiple exposures, etc.  

I like using MF, I don't like the price, but I rack it up to the cost of doing business and move on.  I have more important things to worry about.  And in the grand scheme of things, $35K for a business purchase is not that much.

I also find it funny that there so many people on this forum who do not have a good business sense.  I read the comments on the prices of components, like the sensor, and see nowhere people talking about the R&D that goes into the system and needs to be recovered.  PhaseOne employees people and pays them a salary.  Many of these people work countless hours designing, engineering and assembling the backs.  Those hours and those salaries need to be recovered.  Not to mention, finding, employing and retaining the best at what they do is, usually, expensive.  Also, every business needs to take into account marketing and pay for it somehow.  None of these figures are shown in the price of raw material costs alone.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2014, 10:49:40 am by JoeKitchen »
Logged
"Photography is one percent inspiration and ninety-nine percent

KevinA

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 979
    • Tree Without a Bird
Re: digital back prices
« Reply #67 on: February 24, 2014, 10:54:09 am »

It is what it is, the reasons don't matter.
Logged
Kevin.

Theodoros

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2454
Re: digital back prices
« Reply #68 on: February 24, 2014, 11:19:18 am »

+1 Unfortunately, I must agree with you.
I say unfortunately because Steve and Doug are nice guys.

Edmund

Steve also sells Hassy… no? or is it Leica/Sinar? Doug is entirely on the Phamyia boat… I think!
Logged

Jim Kasson

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2370
    • The Last Word
Re: digital back prices
« Reply #69 on: February 24, 2014, 11:20:10 am »

Maybe one should remember that Apple built their first computer in a garage - at that points single-chip processor chips had become so easy to use that 2 people could do the R&D.

Two people? I think there was one person doing the R&D (a lot of which was done while he was at hp, which turned down the product), and a one-man marketing department.

Jim

eronald

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6642
    • My gallery on Instagram
Re: digital back prices
« Reply #70 on: February 24, 2014, 11:25:37 am »

Joe,

 As you seem to know more than most of us professional engineers about the cost and process of designing electronics, I do wonder exactly why you switched from engineering to photography?

Edmund

Quote

I also find it funny that there so many people on this forum who do not have a good business sense.  I read the comments on the prices of components, like the sensor, and see nowhere people talking about the R&D that goes into the system and needs to be recovered.  PhaseOne employees people and pays them a salary.  Many of these people work countless hours designing, engineering and assembling the backs.  Those hours and those salaries need to be recovered.  Not to mention, finding, employing and retaining the best at what they do is, usually, expensive.  Also, every business needs to take into account marketing and pay for it somehow.  None of these figures are shown in the price of raw material costs alone.
Logged
If you appreciate my blog posts help me by following on https://instagram.com/edmundronald

uaiomex

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1211
    • http://www.eduardocervantes.com
Re: digital back prices
« Reply #71 on: February 24, 2014, 11:31:04 am »

I was genuinely mad few years ago. I could never and still can't understand why DB's are so expensive. I was especially mad at Hasselblad for neglecting the V system and that they couldn't see this huge mistake (my opinion).
I saw how my huge V investment vanished over time. I waited and waited for an affordable back for years. They finally showed up (sort of with the CFV's) but they made it to work only in landscape mode. C'mon guys! To create a back that doesn't rotate in any way to be specifically used with a square boxy 6X6 camera with a WLF is moronic!

Time passed by and my anger went away (almost  :)). A few interesting things happened, the dslr cameras substantially increased mp count, many old lenses were replaced by new formulas that together they surpassed the best of analog medium format, while the prices went down. In essence, the slr replaced the medium format rig all over the world. Meanwhile MF replaced LF.

I recall reading many times in popular photo magazines that MF was the best medium. It had super IQ and portability. The other two had either one but not both. I concurred. Now that title belongs to the heavy, big dslr with huge glass. Something very interesting is going to happen soon: The mirrorless technology will shrink the dslr system to its size of analog 70's, perhaps smaller.

I think the last call for MF has been tolled. If Pentax releases the 645DII with the same sensor as the IQ250 for ten grand,  I may buy it or may not buy it, but for sure I'm going to be really pissed off all over again.

Eduardo



Don't worry Steve, I won't indict you.  ;)  I'm happy when good people can make a living.  Some people seem genuinely angered  by the price. I'm not one of them. I'm amused at most, so none of this is personal.  

Exactly. It's fun to watch.  
  

« Last Edit: February 24, 2014, 11:40:09 am by uaiomex »
Logged

eronald

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6642
    • My gallery on Instagram
Re: digital back prices
« Reply #72 on: February 24, 2014, 11:42:56 am »

Two people? I think there was one person doing the R&D (a lot of which was done while he was at hp, which turned down the product), and a one-man marketing department.

Jim

To be fair, I suspect that somebody used a lot of expensive test equipment which just happened to be lying around at his day job, where they made it :)

Edmund
« Last Edit: February 24, 2014, 11:45:45 am by eronald »
Logged
If you appreciate my blog posts help me by following on https://instagram.com/edmundronald

bpepz

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 261
Re: digital back prices
« Reply #73 on: February 24, 2014, 11:45:09 am »

This is tiring - if y'all feel so angry about this, then put up a kickstarter campaign to design a back for the old Hassies, or a new mirrorless  steel box with liveview using the Hassy or even AF Rollei or AF Contax lenses, and I'll be in line to contribute a few $ in exchange for for one of the first units.

In fact, send me a working physical unit and I'll even write the firmware for myself -  I suspect that quite a few people on this forum have at least my skills and would be willing to participate - and some of my friends would do the Raw software and stitching. After all, photography can be a hobby as much as a job :)

Edmund

Actually that is a fantastic idea.There are so many things today that we have now that would make doing this much cheaper and actually feasible. I Instead of having to spend time and money on complex electronics for LCD, and processing, rig it up to use a smartphone as the "LCD". I am pretty sure you could even offload the processing to the smartphone as well.  Am not an expert on this, but I have seen similar projects do this. Seems digital backs would most benefit.

I envision basically a modular box, with just a sensor and just the most bare bones possible electronics. Processing, LCD, mount, storage, battery,  and other aspects can be added on. Release a open source development kit with it, I would love to see a myriad ecosystem of unique solutions and additions for a system like this.

Remember that guy who made a 8x10 digital back? Now, he did say it costs as much as a good house, but still, that is just one unit, and an extraordinary one at that. Maybe it would not hurt to contact some companies and ask around the cost of something like this. It may not be that bad.
Logged

Theodoros

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2454
Re: digital back prices
« Reply #74 on: February 24, 2014, 11:53:23 am »

Two people? I think there was one person doing the R&D (a lot of which was done while he was at hp, which turned down the product), and a one-man marketing department.

Jim
Phase one, Mamyia and Leaf employes are more than 300 people...
Logged

Jim Kasson

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2370
    • The Last Word
Re: digital back prices
« Reply #75 on: February 24, 2014, 11:54:36 am »

To be fair, I suspect that somebody used a lot of expensive test equipment which just happened to be lying around at his day job, where they made it :)

And isn't it convenient that Chuck House and his team had just invented the perfect tool for the job:

http://www.hpmemory.org/timeline/chuck_house/lsa_birth_03.htm

Jim

david distefano

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 127
Re: digital back prices
« Reply #76 on: February 24, 2014, 12:18:49 pm »

steve, now that you have a store in los  angeles will you be having rental units there? will you also have previously owned units there to examine?
Logged

JoeKitchen

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5022
Re: digital back prices
« Reply #77 on: February 24, 2014, 12:32:51 pm »

Joe,

 As you seem to know more than most of us professional engineers about the cost and process of designing electronics, I do wonder exactly why you switched from engineering to photography?

Edmund


I don't think this a fair comment, and I never claimed to know more about engineering than the engineers.  I simply recognize that the cost to develop and innovate is more than what people tend to think.  
Logged
"Photography is one percent inspiration and ninety-nine percent

EricWHiss

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2639
    • Rolleiflex USA
Re: digital back prices
« Reply #78 on: February 24, 2014, 01:00:19 pm »

This is tiring - if y'all feel so angry about this, then put up a kickstarter campaign to design a back for the old Hassies, or a new mirrorless  steel box with liveview using the Hassy or even AF Rollei or AF Contax lenses, and I'll be in line to contribute a few $ in exchange for for one of the first units.

In fact, send me a working physical unit and I'll even write the firmware for myself -  I suspect that quite a few people on this forum have at least my skills and would be willing to participate - and some of my friends would do the Raw software and stitching. After all, photography can be a hobby as much as a job :)

Edmund

I bet that you are right about the 'hidden' talents viewing these threads.  I'm sure a LuLa forum team could be put assembled to design and build our own digital backs.  Why not?  Quite seriously, count me in on this idea.  Who else?

Now in jest -  when we did have success, there are plenty of other forum participants anxiously waiting to analyze the RAW files from our product and compare it to the next NiCanSon product and tell us how we could have done better.
Logged
Rolleiflex USA

Theodoros

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2454
Re: digital back prices
« Reply #79 on: February 24, 2014, 01:45:13 pm »

I bet that you are right about the 'hidden' talents viewing these threads.  I'm sure a LuLa forum team could be put assembled to design and build our own digital backs.  Why not?  Quite seriously, count me in on this idea.  Who else?

Now in jest -  when we did have success, there are plenty of other forum participants anxiously waiting to analyze the RAW files from our product and compare it to the next NiCanSon product and tell us how we could have done better.

Will the base be the Dalsa 7.2μm pixel size sensor, blown up to 54x40.5 size at 41.5Mps, self contained using dual XQD cards, but with 4x and 16x MS capability as well?  :D  Hooray….  ;D
Logged
Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5   Go Up