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Author Topic: Ten Years after….  (Read 16996 times)

Theodoros

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Re: Ten Years after….
« Reply #40 on: February 17, 2014, 07:13:17 pm »



I don't think anybody doubts the fact that 22mp backs still deliver excellent images today when used in their area of expertise….

[

The discussion is more about their price/performance ratio compared to other options.

Cheers,
Bernard

Wouldn't your D800 "bury it alive" in this shot? …. :P  :D
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Ten Years after….
« Reply #41 on: February 17, 2014, 07:17:45 pm »

Wouldn't your D800 "bury it alive" in this shot? …. :P  :D

In terms of DR yes, I would have liked the shadows in the hair of the little girl to be cleaner.

But I don't disagree that subject matter is more important than DR. Discussing the technical aspects of photography in the context of gear selection does not imply an inability to see other things.  ;)

Cheers,
Bernard

Theodoros

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Re: Ten Years after….
« Reply #42 on: February 17, 2014, 07:21:22 pm »

In terms of DR yes, I would have liked the shadows in the hair of the little girl to be cleaner.

But I don't disagree that subject matter is more important than DR.

Com'on, you know better than that. Speaking about the technical aspects of photography in the context of gear selection does not imply an inability to see other things.  ;)

Cheers,
Bernard

it's in DR where your D800 would be "buried alive" in this particular shot… unless if you would never print it that is…. It is because "I know better than that" why I make the comment.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Ten Years after….
« Reply #43 on: February 17, 2014, 07:30:27 pm »

it's in DR where your D800 would be "buried alive" in this particular shot… unless if you would never print it that is…. It is because "I know better than that" why I make the comment.

Feel free to believe whatever you want, but keep in mind that you are in the process of influencing a person who may end up spending North of 10,000 US$ on a possible purchase. I may just be me, but I do feel a certain degree of responsibility in terms of conveying accurate facts.

Cheers,
Bernard

Theodoros

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Re: Ten Years after….
« Reply #44 on: February 17, 2014, 07:36:15 pm »

Feel free to believe whatever you want, but keep in mind that you are in the process of influencing a person who may end up spending North of 10,000 US$ on a possible purchase. I may just be me, but I do feel a certain degree of responsibility in terms of conveying accurate facts.

Cheers,
Bernard

If you think that "I believe what ever I want" may you please post the raw file so that I can process it myself?
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Ten Years after….
« Reply #45 on: February 17, 2014, 07:50:57 pm »

If you think that "I believe what ever I want" may you please post the raw file so that I can process it myself?

I apologize, this image is copyrighted, I have no intention to share the raw data.

Cheers,
Bernard

synn

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Re: Ten Years after….
« Reply #46 on: February 17, 2014, 08:13:08 pm »

It is for sure possible to get excellent results with film, 4x5 or other formats. Not sure why this would hurt.



It is possible to get good results from ANY tool; which is the point.

Bruce Percy uses Velvia because that's the tool most suited for his style. I doubt if he has spent an hour on DxO fretting over their methodology or what sensor has what DR. It is absolutely fine to select the tool that's right for your style based on technical points, but to discredit the choices of other photographers because it's not manly enough for YOU/ is not value for money enough for YOU / is technically inferior for YOU etc (See a recurring pattern?) is just silly. People are free to choose whatever they want based on their priorities. I find Canon DSLRs terrible, but I don't spend my hours admonishing my friend for getting one. When we are out together, we shoot.

...and please don't make me laugh, you or no one else has an "Obligation" to educate anyone about to make a medium format purchase. It's nice of you to share your opinion if they ask for advice, but there's certainly no "Obligation". And BTW, we're talking $3k here, not $10k for a 22MP back. Also, almost anyone who buys medium format backs do their homework and have their own reasons to go in that direction which may or may not co-relate with your personal beliefs.



Nikon D70s. I couldn't give a rat's rear end what DxO thinks of this sensor. It is what I could afford at that time, It is all I had.



iPhone 4. Probably not good enough to make it to DxO.

Now can we PLEASE get back to the topic and not derail yet another thread?
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Ten Years after….
« Reply #47 on: February 17, 2014, 08:53:18 pm »

Bernard, you have posted some fine images. They say far more about you than your usual endless insistence on the superiority of your techniques and equipment.

Thanks.

My only focus is to convey an accurate view of the respective strengths and weaknesses of equipment. MFDBs don't need to be oversold on qualities they don't have, like a magical DR compared to recent DSLRs.

I am sure none of us would want a potential new comer to be led to expect things he will not find. All in all, the only difference between me and all 3 of you in this discussion is that my claims (mostly about DR) are factual, or at least intended to be factual.

Erik comes to mind, he doesn't seem to regret his investment in a P45+, but he is also very realistic about the areas where he hasn't gained anything compared to his Sony A99, and DR is again one of those.

So this is not about my equipment vs others (why would I care?), it is about being accurate about the actual qualities of 22mp backs. I wouldn't have jumped in had unrealistic claims not been made.

Cheers,
Bernard

eronald

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Re: Ten Years after….
« Reply #48 on: February 17, 2014, 09:00:43 pm »

The D70s was a Nikon D1x in a smaller package. Very good CCD sensor with binning in one direction if I remember rightly.

Edmund


It is possible to get good results from ANY tool; which is the point.

Bruce Percy uses Velvia because that's the tool most suited for his style. I doubt if he has spent an hour on DxO fretting over their methodology or what sensor has what DR. It is absolutely fine to select the tool that's right for your style based on technical points, but to discredit the choices of other photographers because it's not manly enough for YOU/ is not value for money enough for YOU / is technically inferior for YOU etc (See a recurring pattern?) is just silly. People are free to choose whatever they want based on their priorities. I find Canon DSLRs terrible, but I don't spend my hours admonishing my friend for getting one. When we are out together, we shoot.

...and please don't make me laugh, you or no one else has an "Obligation" to educate anyone about to make a medium format purchase. It's nice of you to share your opinion if they ask for advice, but there's certainly no "Obligation". And BTW, we're talking $3k here, not $10k for a 22MP back. Also, almost anyone who buys medium format backs do their homework and have their own reasons to go in that direction which may or may not co-relate with your personal beliefs.



Nikon D70s. I couldn't give a rat's rear end what DxO thinks of this sensor. It is what I could afford at that time, It is all I had.



iPhone 4. Probably not good enough to make it to DxO.

Now can we PLEASE get back to the topic and not derail yet another thread?
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Ten Years after….
« Reply #49 on: February 17, 2014, 09:01:11 pm »

Now can we PLEASE get back to the topic and not derail yet another thread?

Ah ah ah... I applaud your ability to perform self criticism. ;) I don't think I am the one who has brought film, iPhone 4 or D70 images in this discussion, am I?

The topic is whether to invest in a 22mp back or spend money otherwise, is it not?

My advice stands, a Sony a7r + 55mm f1.8 + stitching head. And no, I do not own the Sony.

Cheers,
Bernard

synn

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Re: Ten Years after….
« Reply #50 on: February 17, 2014, 09:07:20 pm »

Ah ah ah... I applaud your ability to perform self criticism. ;) I don't think I am the one who has brought film, iPhone 4 or D70 images in this discussion, am I?


The point <---


Your head<----


Moving on; a fat pixel back is a genuinely useful and practical tool for those with legacy MF systems like my ETRSi kit. For those, it's a more sensible purchase than dropping the sizable legacy kit they have and moving to a whole new system.

With all the hype about the new CMOS backs, I hope the prices of legacy backs drop further and make them accessible for a lot more people.
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Ten Years after….
« Reply #51 on: February 17, 2014, 09:34:06 pm »

Hi Bernard,

You are quite correct. I enjoy shooting with the P45+/Hassy V combo, but I see no magic benefits. I ask myself about the sanity of the investment, but no way the P45+/Hassy go to EBay!

I think that may be some placebo like effect, you find what you expect to find. For me MF has worked as I expected, but would I have other expectations I guess I may have felt that they also would be fulfilled.

I see that the P45+ is lagging in DR compared to my Sonys, due to noisy shadows, but it is very seldom DR is a problem for me.

It is seldom I shoot the same subject under real world conditions with both the P45+ and the Sony, and even than, real world conditions often change. So I don't have a lot of comparable images.

I am pretty sure that pixels can go much smaller on MF, at least on SLR type cameras with retrofocus designs. I have not tested this on MF because I have only the P45+, but if I shoot say a 24 MP APS-C camera with 150 mm lens and shoot with an 150 mm lens on the P45+ I can essentially demonstrate how say a 120 MP MFD device would render the image, and it is a great improvement. So I am against fat pixels (except on technical cameras with significant shift).

Best regards
Erik


Thanks.


Erik comes to mind, he doesn't seem to regret his investment in a P45+, but he is also very realistic about the areas where he hasn't gained anything compared to his Sony A99, and DR is again one of those.


Cheers,
Bernard

« Last Edit: February 18, 2014, 12:35:21 am by ErikKaffehr »
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Kumar

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Re: Ten Years after….
« Reply #52 on: February 17, 2014, 09:54:45 pm »

….Which in return works only on an LF camera and is much worst than an MS version of these backs when used for the same purpose! …In fact any back ever is worst when compared to a correctly done 16x image out of the MS version of these backs

Actually, the Betterlight can work with Fuji 680 and Mamiya RB/RZ67 cameras with adapters. And I'm curious about your statement that MS backs are better than scanning backs. Would you mind explaining further?
Thanks,
Kumar
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haplo602

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Re: Ten Years after….
« Reply #54 on: February 18, 2014, 01:49:40 am »

No clue about the topic, but if somebody would donate a Leaf Aptus 22 (or even a Valeo 22) in V or RZ mount to me, I'd love to find out by myself :-)))
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Ten Years after….
« Reply #56 on: February 18, 2014, 05:11:20 am »

Bernard, as far as I can remember I have never made any claims of any kind about the superiority of any MFD backs - 22MP or otherwise - over DSLRs. It's not something I do. I just use them to make images.

Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

Apologies if I misquoted you.

Cheers,
Bernard

ErikKaffehr

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Re: Ten Years after…. (reflection Multi Shoot)
« Reply #57 on: February 18, 2014, 05:24:11 am »

Hi,

Just to say, multishoot with fat pixels can increase resolution by shifting the pixels. That in turn depends on the pixels having a relatively low fill factor. 4X multishot samples RGBG pixels for each pixel position but 16X multishot probable also samples data between pixels, quadrupling resolution and reducing aliasing.

May explain why MS backs are good for repro.

Best regards
Erik
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Theodoros

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Re: Ten Years after…. (reflection Multi Shoot)
« Reply #58 on: February 18, 2014, 12:06:10 pm »

Hi,

Just to say, multishoot with fat pixels can increase resolution by shifting the pixels. That in turn depends on the pixels having a relatively low fill factor. 4X multishot samples RGBG pixels for each pixel position but 16X multishot probable also samples data between pixels, quadrupling resolution and reducing aliasing.

May explain why MS backs are good for repro.

Best regards
Erik
Moire is already not an issue with 4X, there is no moire when one shoots MS… What 16X does, is to multiply resolution four times, but it does so by shooting four different areas of the same imaging area… The result is that the Nyquist limit is if the area was of quadruped the size, but with exactly the same characteristics as with 4x (for lens resolution, pixel etc.)… If 16x is done correctly, 80mp backs look much inferior (in resolution) than 16x backs and if you add "true colour" on the above… It's a real experience!

P.S. Mind you, that "successful 16X" is different to "16X done correctly", many have done successfully 16x and because the result is impressive, they don't bother to explore it further where they would realise that it can be a real life experience...
« Last Edit: February 18, 2014, 12:17:07 pm by T.Dascalos »
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Gandalf

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Re: Ten Years after….
« Reply #59 on: February 18, 2014, 01:25:41 pm »

This isn't exactly what you are asking for, but I did shoot the same image (outdoor architecture, all artificial lighting, night shot) with a Canon 5DII and an Aptus 7 (33 MP) on a tech cam with a 35 mm lens. The Aptus image was clearly superior, especially in highlight detail. Where the Canon had clipped channels and made the wood go yellow, the Aptus kept both accurate color and impressive detail. It was good enough that if you needed a bigger image, you could just uprez it in photoshop as all the useable detail in the scene was captured. I was impressed.

The client didn't see any appreciable difference and went with the Canon shot because it was a little wider and they liked the 2x3 perspective. I vastly preferred shooting with the Canon because the camera was mounted on a very tall tripod and where the Canon could be completely controlled with Capture One, the tech cam required making adjustments to the lens/shutter blind by reaching high overhead. The tripod was on a hill in a snow bank.

Now, I have not done a similar shoot with a D800 or A7/r, and that could be interesting. Especially an A7/r with a Canon T/S lens.

I got to play in a studio with a model and a D800 and IQ180. All the picture from the D800 were technically good, but I had a hard time getting a great picture from it. It just seemed a bit flat. It took all my C1 mojo to make them look good. The IQ180/DF (might have been DF+) was a different story. Getting an acceptably focused image was very difficult because of the DF and full size chip, but the ones that were in focus were spectacular and presented a very different challenge in C1 -- the images could be made to look any way that you wanted. While the DSLR had IMO one correct way to process them, the IQ180 files were so flexible that your own creativity was the limiting factor.

What's the point of all this? Well, if you are looking at legacy backs, I think a bigger sensor is a better sensor as long as you don't need the advantages of a smaller sensor (higher ISO, capture speed). The more recent digital backs (P30+, P40+, Aptus 7, Aptus 8) are more color accurate than any DSLR. There are limitations of the DF body, especially with focusing. This is more of a problem with a large chip because of DOF. The digital backs (any of them) tether better and more reliably than a DSLR.

So, from an overall technical view, I would say there are advantages, but at a cost. To me, the real reason to invest in a 22 mp back is because you want to upgrade to a newer technology back at some point, and want to start building a camera system. I would be surprised if there is any advantage to a 22mp back over a current DSLR. When you move up to a 33 - 39 mp back, I think that changes.
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