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Author Topic: Archives and pricing.  (Read 1379 times)

Justinr

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Archives and pricing.
« on: February 16, 2014, 05:37:33 am »

Recently I came across the photo archives of a US university with lots of old, wonderful and fascinating images that would be of interest to classic/vintage tractor enthusiasts over here in Ireland and the UK. The price for use in the magazine where I was hoping to include a few is $150 each.

Now, I am all for photographers being properly rewarded for their efforts but these images were all at least 50 years old and I doubt that it is even known who actually took the majority of them so one can only assume the university holds the copyright. I also appreciate that there is a cost involved in storing, catalouging and displaying these pictures but $150 smacks of desperate business indeed, let's face it, there are supposedly profitable agencies out there giving certain images away.

Needless to say no purchase was made and so the university not only missed out on a sale but also the opportunity to disseminate a small part of the riches it holds, at public expense I presume, to a wider audience. Will there be any other potential customers for these photos other than relatively small circulation magazines? I doubt it, so their pricing policy strikes me as somewhat self defeating in that no sales are made and the photos are only available as low res watermarked images online which need to be searched out by those who really want to see them.

One argument that will be put forward is that magazines are out to make money so they should look upon it as a cost of doing business, which is fine, but some costs are just too much especially if said magazine wants to use a handful of pictures. There are glossy publications that may find some of the images in the same university's style and design archives affordable but at the other end of the scale it just ain't going to happen.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2014, 06:12:53 am by Justinr »
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Justinr

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Re: Archives and pricing.
« Reply #1 on: February 16, 2014, 07:56:12 am »

Hmm, I thought I'd seen it all, but now we have a "photographer" advocating lower image prices.

In certain cases yes, in the hope that they might actually get used rather than lie around in some dusty archive.
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Rob C

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Re: Archives and pricing.
« Reply #2 on: February 16, 2014, 10:01:58 am »

Hmm, I thought I'd seen it all, but now we have a "photographer" advocating lower image prices.


Glad to see you posting again, I'd been starting to imagine that you'd been flooded out too!

I also realise yet again why stock has gone down the tubes and the imagined work-related pension with it.

;-)

Rob C

Justinr

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Re: Archives and pricing.
« Reply #3 on: February 16, 2014, 10:35:17 am »


Glad to see you posting again, I'd been starting to imagine that you'd been flooded out too!

I also realise yet again why stock has gone down the tubes and the imagined work-related pension with it.

;-)

Rob C

Once photography became a commodity then stock was doomed and it ain't my fault that it happened that way.

I wonder Rob if you can cast your mind ten years or so and recall the arguments raging on various fora about the merits of the digital onslaught. I distinctly remember the advocates telling us how we were all going to make so much more money without the expense of film, processing etc and how the interweb thingy would make distribution so much more efficient! What they didn't foresee was that because creating digital pictures that were at least in focus and reasonably exposed was a lot easier than good old analogue everybody would be doing it, which is where we are now and why stock agencies are virtually giving images away.

In this brave new world we need to carry a sense of realism, I no longer sell myself purely as a photographer but as a creator of magazine articles that includes a good standard of photography, the craft is now just part of the package and while I greatly admire the excellent photographers that do make a living from the art (many on here) I also realise that photography alone does not command the respect it once did, hence my frustration when confronted by an institution that doesn't appear to have moved with the times as the rest of us have had to.  

If anybody feels differently then I invite them to offer their photos to enthusiast magazines over here at $150 a pop.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2014, 10:46:37 am by Justinr »
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Rob C

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Re: Archives and pricing.
« Reply #4 on: February 16, 2014, 12:08:42 pm »

Once photography became a commodity then stock was doomed and it ain't my fault that it happened that way.

I wonder Rob if you can cast your mind ten years or so and recall the arguments raging on various fora about the merits of the digital onslaught. I distinctly remember the advocates telling us how we were all going to make so much more money without the expense of film, processing etc and how the interweb thingy would make distribution so much more efficient! What they didn't foresee was that because creating digital pictures that were at least in focus and reasonably exposed was a lot easier than good old analogue everybody would be doing it, which is where we are now and why stock agencies are virtually giving images away.

In this brave new world we need to carry a sense of realism, I no longer sell myself purely as a photographer but as a creator of magazine articles that includes a good standard of photography, the craft is now just part of the package and while I greatly admire the excellent photographers that do make a living from the art (many on here) I also realise that photography alone does not command the respect it once did, hence my frustration when confronted by an institution that doesn't appear to have moved with the times as the rest of us have had to.  

If anybody feels differently then I invite them to offer their photos to enthusiast magazines over here at $150 a pop.





Thing is, you have no idea how many images they shift at 150 bucks a pop; that figure may represent their low side, and since we appear here to be speaking of rare images of old stuff, then price is still governed by rarity. Just because you or your outlet can't/won't pay doesn't mean that others don't or won't. Realities are different for different people.

I do remember a lot of noise at the onset of digital, and I don't think I was any sort of advocate for it; my life then and in the past had been very nice thank you with Kodachrome and the occasional roll of 120 Ektachrome; I needed no upsets to my market stall! Actually, rather than digital cameras being the real problem, which left to their own devices they would not have been, quite the opposite, it was when stock libraries and/or their offshoots began to offer CDs full of royalty-free images that the turd hit the turbine. That devalued the price of photography, not the value, but the price one could sell work at in almost all markets. Had it been the value of photography that has fallen, we wouldn't see so much of it everywhere.

The next big failure that photographers allowed themselves was the matter of pre-press work. I recall the wails about hours at a computer, how to charge for it, and whether just to include it as part of the 'package' etc. and not itemise it separately. Instead, had we all had the sense to see the damned event as the threat that it was, processing would have remained in the hands of the people next down the pecking order exactly as was scanning - probably the best-suited home for it - and our work would have carried on as usual. But we stumbled and fell into the trap, thinking it meant more 'control' - control of what, for God's sake; the only control we needed was handing over the edited film and the invoice and moving on to the next job!

As with many of my own defeats, I believe the rest of the business brought it firmly upon itself by lacking the necessary balls when they were required. Frankly, I see professional photography today as anything but an attractive medium; it was always tough, but there was room at many levels; today, I think not so: I think you either make out very well or you starve. That's too extreme for any realistic way of life, and certainly no way I'd like to live and try to bring up/keep together a family in any comfort or style.

Rob C
« Last Edit: February 16, 2014, 12:11:05 pm by Rob C »
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Justinr

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Re: Archives and pricing.
« Reply #5 on: February 16, 2014, 02:05:40 pm »



Thing is, you have no idea how many images they shift at 150 bucks a pop; that figure may represent their low side, and since we appear here to be speaking of rare images of old stuff, then price is still governed by rarity. Just because you or your outlet can't/won't pay doesn't mean that others don't or won't. Realities are different for different people.

I do remember a lot of noise at the onset of digital, and I don't think I was any sort of advocate for it; my life then and in the past had been very nice thank you with Kodachrome and the occasional roll of 120 Ektachrome; I needed no upsets to my market stall! Actually, rather than digital cameras being the real problem, which left to their own devices they would not have been, quite the opposite, it was when stock libraries and/or their offshoots began to offer CDs full of royalty-free images that the turd hit the turbine. That devalued the price of photography, not the value, but the price one could sell work at in almost all markets. Had it been the value of photography that has fallen, we wouldn't see so much of it everywhere.

The next big failure that photographers allowed themselves was the matter of pre-press work. I recall the wails about hours at a computer, how to charge for it, and whether just to include it as part of the 'package' etc. and not itemise it separately. Instead, had we all had the sense to see the damned event as the threat that it was, processing would have remained in the hands of the people next down the pecking order exactly as was scanning - probably the best-suited home for it - and our work would have carried on as usual. But we stumbled and fell into the trap, thinking it meant more 'control' - control of what, for God's sake; the only control we needed was handing over the edited film and the invoice and moving on to the next job!

As with many of my own defeats, I believe the rest of the business brought it firmly upon itself by lacking the necessary balls when they were required. Frankly, I see professional photography today as anything but an attractive medium; it was always tough, but there was room at many levels; today, I think not so: I think you either make out very well or you starve. That's too extreme for any realistic way of life, and certainly no way I'd like to live and try to bring up/keep together a family in any comfort or style.

Rob C

It is true that I have no idea of how many images they sell but I make it my business to have a good nosy round the world of classic and vintage tractors and I have yet to see any images that I recognise as emerging from their vaults. I am also only too aware of the budgets that these sort of magazines run on, certainly on this side of the pond, and the prices are way over the top of what publishers are prepared to spend which is unfortunate, but that's the way it is.


I'd pretty much agree with you otherwise.

« Last Edit: February 16, 2014, 02:14:35 pm by Justinr »
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Colorado David

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Re: Archives and pricing.
« Reply #6 on: February 16, 2014, 06:30:01 pm »

U.S. copyright law says the original photographer or his estate owns the copyright for their lifetime plus seventy years after their death.  It is conceivable that a fifty year old photograph is still under copyright to the original creator.
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