Poll

Will you still consider P1 IQ250 / H5-50C after seeing the value proposition of Pentax?

I will still get an IQ250 for 35k USD!
- 5 (7.1%)
I will still get a Hassy for 25k!
- 2 (2.9%)
I just might switch to Pentax!
- 25 (35.7%)
I will get Pentax as a second MF camera!
- 11 (15.7%)
P1 / Hassy will need to lower prices or else lose market share!
- 27 (38.6%)

Total Members Voted: 58


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Author Topic: Is the new Pentax 645 a game changer?: 10k USD, 100k+ ISO, 3fps, movie mode!!  (Read 19666 times)

sbernthal

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I believe software is also quite significant in determining final image quality. I believe Pentax MFD image quality today is not quite as good as Phase.

To the best of my knowledge, movie recording can be done right now at a max of 4K resolution, which is not satisfactory for commercial stills. I think it would be very difficult to create a machine that would record movies whose frames are comparable In quality to stills. I believe this goals will be attained at some point, and will have critical effects on photography, but we are a few years away from it. If Pentax would have cracked that nut, it would have been all over the news already.
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eronald

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I believe software is also quite significant in determining final image quality. I believe Pentax MFD image quality today is not quite as good as Phase.

To the best of my knowledge, movie recording can be done right now at a max of 4K resolution, which is not satisfactory for commercial stills. I think it would be very difficult to create a machine that would record movies whose frames are comparable In quality to stills. I believe this goals will be attained at some point, and will have critical effects on photography, but we are a few years away from it. If Pentax would have cracked that nut, it would have been all over the news already.


This is the big breakthrough with the Sony CMOS sensor: It is digital, and outputs image data directly, where a CCD sensor needs the camera manufacturer to implement very carefully designed read  circuitry.

As for movies, one reason for Sony's creation of this sensor may be precisely that they wish to have a test bed for very high rez experimental TV programming which could then justify the new highrez displays which Japanese and Korean manufacturers want to sell.

Whatever you believe, the 50MP Sony sensor with its 24 frame/sec movie abilities is *real* and in fact has been real for a couple of years now it would seem. I don't know how one can get that data off the chip and store it, but probably Sony hopes to sell you the device which can do it.

I think we'll see a revolution in fashion shooting with people picking frames from hi-rez movies. Tethering as we know it is going to die.

Edmund
« Last Edit: February 17, 2014, 07:29:31 am by eronald »
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KevinA

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Does it exist? Not on the Pentax site.
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gerald.d

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Whatever you believe, the 50MP Sony sensor with its 24 frame/sec movie abilities is *real* and in fact has been real for a couple of years now it would seem. I don't know how one can get that data off the chip and store it, but probably Sony hopes to sell you the device which can do it.

What are it's movie abilities though?

What resolutions can it pull off 24 frames/second at?

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eronald

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What are it's movie abilities though?

What resolutions can it pull off 24 frames/second at?



That is the interesting question which we are all waiting to see answered :)
Depends on the electronics around the sensor, I guess, the cooling and whether or not you've paid the "movie fee".
As someone pointed out, the only difference between a Canon 1Dx and a 1Dc seems to be a better heatsink and the price.

Edmund

Edmund
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BJL

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24fps live view is far easier than 24fps movie quality output
« Reply #45 on: February 17, 2014, 10:25:00 am »

Whatever you believe, the 50MP Sony sensor with its 24 frame/sec movie abilities is *real* and in fact has been real for a couple of years now it would seem.
The only 24fps capability I have read about is for live view, which could be massively sub-sampled to produce an image adequate for live view, but not much good for movie recording. For example, reading just every fifth pixel of every fifth line would give about 1600x1200, which is more than any current EVF can display AFAIK.

Aside on EVF resolution counting: EVFs described as "2.36MP" have XGA resolution of 1024 x 768 or a bit under 1MP, using the magical counting of 1024 wide x 768 high x 3 colors displayed at each location, as with the Epson model L3F04X-8x that is probably used in the Olympus E-M1 and the accessory EVF model VF-4:
http://global.epson.com/newsroom/2013/news_20130122.html
http://global.epson.com/products/htps/products/pdf/f04x8.pdf
http://global.epson.com/products/htps/products/index.html
« Last Edit: February 17, 2014, 10:32:39 am by BJL »
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Ken R

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As a few people said, Canon is not failing to make a high end camera, they are just not interested.
Their 1Dx and 5D3 are dominating their segments, and by Canon's calculations the segment above that is not worth the effort of R&D and setting up production lines.

Sony is selling a LOT of A7R's thx to Canon's failure to improve their full frame sensor image quality. Same with Nikon's D800 and D800E. Quite a few people switched to Nikon because of that product. Yes, it is a niche (of people that require higher MP and Dynamic range) but it is not by any means irrelevant and the photography market is made of up a bunch of niches isn't it?

Canon is not innovating much. Look at what a company like fuji has done. And Sony. Mirrorless is the future in high end interchangeable lens cameras, well, in fact, it is the present. Check out THIS interview of Nikon Execs.

"Why do you think that mirrorless has been relatively slow to gain popularity in Europe and America?

Let’s talk about North America because that’s one of the worst geographies when it comes to the mirrorless camera market. The market for our mirrorless cameras is not growing there. We’re still studying the reasons but we believe that North American customers believe that if they want image quality they’re supposed to buy DSLRs, not mirrorless. In reality, mirrorless can offer high image quality, it’s just a smaller system, but the American customers don’t view it in that way."

Well, looking at Canon's and Nikon's mirror less offerings might answer that question better. They are simply subpar and people are not willing to take a huge downgrade in image quality from a DSLR. Imagine a Nikon or Canon branded Fuji XT1-like camera with a full frame 24mp or 36mp sensor and excellent AF performance.
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Vladimirovich

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Canon is not innovating much. Look at what a company like fuji has done.
and what fuji done exactly ? xtrans layout ? which is not really capable to compete w/ regular CFA layouts ... so all the "advatage" from getting rid of AA filter is killed then by demosaick  ;D ...
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Vladimirovich

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. Imagine a Nikon or Canon branded Fuji XT1-like camera with a full frame 24mp or 36mp sensor and excellent AF performance.
you mean E-M1 or GH4 like camera, because those run circles around Kaisen-ridden (translation - we can't get anything right from the first 10 attempts, so may be 10 more) Fuji.
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Ken R

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Fuji is making some outstanding camera bodies and some very nice lenses. They could certainly use a better sensor like the one in the Pentax K3 which I believe is made by Toshiba. So the Fuji XT1 is basically a camera looking for a sensor although the one they have is more than acceptable for many users. But it certain isn't class leading (APS-C size class).

The Oly EM1 is an outstanding body with a good sensor (not great) and the GH4 should be even better.

Also, I am talking in regards to still image quality and still image capture functionality (and all my previous comments in regards to lack of Canon innovation)
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Stefan.Steib

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Pentax wil hold its stake and expand with the new 645d CMOS.
Phase will probably not be much influenced by this.
What may finally rise price discussions will be the release of the new Leica S(3?) with cmos when they stick with their actual pricepoint around 20k $
(which I suspect heavily).

I wish Phase all the best, but I hope they may not come into a situation like Sigma with the SD1.
The back definitely is good, the CMOS decision is right, just the pricing should have been done a bit more mixed calculation with lenses and bodies total turnaround.
As it is now the customer number will probably stay constant, with some raise on existing customers who will buy an additional body to complete their portfolio
on existing lenses and bodies, for them the 30000 (?) $ will make sense.
For a complete new buyer I have doubts about that.

The CMOS could have been a new entry for fresh customers from the fashion and people scene. Right now I think the positioning on the market is not "helpful".

So I hope I am wrong, because I´m sure this CMOS is a big investment for a small company and it also takes resources to devellop which are not infinite.
It is doomed to be successful, if not......

Greetings from Germany
Stefan
« Last Edit: February 17, 2014, 12:45:55 pm by Stefan.Steib »
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Pics2

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Is there a Mamiya lens to Pentax 645d camera adapter? I  thought about replacing D800E with new Pentax (one day), but keeping DF and IQ back. It would be nice to use existing Mamiya/Phase One lenses on Pentax. I don't need infinity, just macro work (Phase One 120mm lens).
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Paul2660

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and what fuji done exactly ? xtrans layout ? which is not really capable to compete w/ regular CFA layouts ... so all the "advatage" from getting rid of AA filter is killed then by demosaick  ;D ...

Layout from x-trans can be challenging, but with the right raw converter, results from it can be very impressive.  See Capture One, 7.x or the Iridient raw developer.

Paul C.
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Paul2660

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Is there a Mamiya lens to Pentax 645d camera adapter? I  thought about replacing D800E with new Pentax (one day), but keeping DF and IQ back. It would be nice to use existing Mamiya/Phase One lenses on Pentax. I don't need infinity, just macro work (Phase One 120mm lens).

I looked into this back early days of the 645D.  As I recell the focal flange distance between the two cameras is the same and an adapter pushes you past infinity, however as you mentioned Macro you should be OK.  SK grimes may be able to make a custom adapter for you.

Paul C.
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Pics2

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I looked into this back early days of the 645D.  As I recell the focal flange distance between the two cameras is the same and an adapter pushes you past infinity, however as you mentioned Macro you should be OK.  SK grimes may be able to make a custom adapter for you.

Paul C.
Thanks Paul!
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bcooter

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I think we'll see a revolution in fashion shooting with people picking frames from hi-rez movies. Tethering as we know it is going to die.

Edmund


Edmund,

Next you'll be dreaming of flying cars and free energy.

I wouldn't hold your breath for a combined still and motion camera that every frame would work in both still and motion content.

Compared to the movie camera industry, still cameras, heck all still equipment is consumer priced.

There is this scream that a $35,000 Phase back is expensive (it is ), but in the cinema world $35,000 is just a semi fast zoom and prime lens.

Sure you can buy a RED for the same price, until you add fans, rails, boxes, basic stands and a decent fluid head and your into $80,000 before you ever strike a lamp, or mount a lens.

A 2k Arri is 80 grand just for a body and capture media for motion can be $20,000 just for a basic shoot.

We have a project in house that's motion and stills and the equipment we put into the room is about $380,000 and that's not a huge project.

In the cinema world, that's just scratching the surface.

So my point . . . If Pentax or phase or Hasselblad came out with a 8k camera that shot stills and motion at the same time I would be surprised, actually shocked, especially at the Pentax price of 10k.

For one the data collection would be overwhelming.   Even with compression, 24 fps of a 50mpx compressed to 1/2 and run in a three minute session would be shocking.

Not including how hot a 50mpx camera would get pushing out that volume of data.   A RED that runs for an hour is hot, real hot and you know to turn it off when you can, regardless of the fans.

How something like Panasonic's gh4 can push 200mbs out of that small package and not melt is probably a wonder of science and yes we've retouched video files into stills if everything falls right, like your shooting waist up and your willing to put many hours into post work,
but to think you just turn it on, set it at 2,000 iso, shoot all day and have stills and motion just isn't reasonable today.

We should be amazed that C-1 or Lightroom can take 2,000 raw files, debayer them make previews and allow for correction on a simple desktop or laptop computer, with a software suite that costs $300

When I put my first 4k red project into an 8 core desktop the first clip at 1/2 debayer took 6 hours to process out to 2k.    Two hours later i bought two RED rockets and at $4,500 each.

Imagine if Phase one required a $4,500 graphic card to run c-1?

The difference between high end motion and high end stills is few client's would care if you shot with a d800, some acute heads a few softboxes and c stands, running to a laptop.

You can do the same with a phase back, Briese lights, Matthews rollers, and up the equipment price 30 fold, but most still clients wouldn't notice the difference as long as they got the look they wanted.

In motion setting up a gh3 (or Canon 1dc)  on a small tripod and some 500 watt tungsten lights might produce a great look (if your careful) but for a high end motion project there would be some serious discussion on where the money went.

Then somebody has to view it.   I have clients that can't view a 2k prorezz without restarting their I-macs, and that's at 4:2:2.   I had one european agency ask for an uncompressed 3 minute video with produced at 2k 4:4:4 and yes we could conform it out but they never could view it.

Sure there are third party graphic cards, breakout boxes, ways to view high end motion, but how many print art directors working on a two year old I mac are going to have that equipment?

There may come a time where one camera does all, but i seriously doubt it.  I don't think even one still camera can do it all, but as still photographers we're somewhat spoiled.

So $35,000 for a digital back seems like a lot, $10,000 for the Pentax seems like a bargain, a d800 seems like a miracle.

Now like Stefen, I think the phase $35,000 back is a huge bite into a photographer's budget, regardless of their billing, considering what everything in production costs today.

Also you need to tack on a new computer to run C1 7, so your really at $39,000 plus body and lenses and that is getting into high territory given the fact we all know that the electronic mantra is to up the mpx in 18 months time, especially when Nikon or Canon comes out with 40 mpx for $5,000.

Pentax could find an opening if they built a tethering suite and got more and a little less costly lenses out in the market, but Pentax seems to be a company that dribbles out information at a very slow rate.

I must admit I'm a little surprised that with adding cmos that none of the camera makers has offered a mirrorless solution, but maybe I'm dreaming of flying cars.

IMO

BC


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ErikKaffehr

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Hi BC,

Being expensive is not really an advantage. There are advantage worth paying for and that can come expensive.

Now, if you can add an algorithm that can record 4K video at low cost you will add it, because it costs little.

One reason that DSLR video is bad is that they use line skipping. The OLP filter is intended for around 4000 pixel vertical resolution, so to get 1080P you skip 3 lines of four. So you either get massive moiré or a soft images. Mostly you get both.

Now, you can sample the full sensor, but you need to downscale to 1080P in real time, it can be done, the Sony 10RX does it and I guess the Panasonic cameras have done it for a long time.

Now, with an 8K image you can probably downsample to 4K video with very little effort. Once the technology is at hand, you can as well implement it.

So I guess it is very well possible that we see Edmunds ideas implemented, because the technology is around the corner and you can implement it almost free.

Best regards
Erik



Edmund,

Next you'll be dreaming of flying cars and free energy.

I wouldn't hold your breath for a combined still and motion camera that every frame would work in both still and motion content.

Compared to the movie camera industry, still cameras, heck all still equipment is consumer priced.

There is this scream that a $35,000 Phase back is expensive (it is ), but in the cinema world $35,000 is just a semi fast zoom and prime lens.

Sure you can buy a RED for the same price, until you add fans, rails, boxes, basic stands and a decent fluid head and your into $80,000 before you ever strike a lamp, or mount a lens.

A 2k Arri is 80 grand just for a body and capture media for motion can be $20,000 just for a basic shoot.

We have a project in house that's motion and stills and the equipment we put into the room is about $380,000 and that's not a huge project.

In the cinema world, that's just scratching the surface.

So my point . . . If Pentax or phase or Hasselblad came out with a 8k camera that shot stills and motion at the same time I would be surprised, actually shocked, especially at the Pentax price of 10k.

For one the data collection would be overwhelming.   Even with compression, 24 fps of a 50mpx compressed to 1/2 and run in a three minute session would be shocking.

Not including how hot a 50mpx camera would get pushing out that volume of data.   A RED that runs for an hour is hot, real hot and you know to turn it off when you can, regardless of the fans.

How something like Panasonic's gh4 can push 200mbs out of that small package and not melt is probably a wonder of science and yes we've retouched video files into stills if everything falls right, like your shooting waist up and your willing to put many hours into post work,
but to think you just turn it on, set it at 2,000 iso, shoot all day and have stills and motion just isn't reasonable today.

We should be amazed that C-1 or Lightroom can take 2,000 raw files, debayer them make previews and allow for correction on a simple desktop or laptop computer, with a software suite that costs $300

When I put my first 4k red project into an 8 core desktop the first clip at 1/2 debayer took 6 hours to process out to 2k.    Two hours later i bought two RED rockets and at $4,500 each.

Imagine if Phase one required a $4,500 graphic card to run c-1?

The difference between high end motion and high end stills is few client's would care if you shot with a d800, some acute heads a few softboxes and c stands, running to a laptop.

You can do the same with a phase back, Briese lights, Matthews rollers, and up the equipment price 30 fold, but most still clients wouldn't notice the difference as long as they got the look they wanted.

In motion setting up a gh3 (or Canon 1dc)  on a small tripod and some 500 watt tungsten lights might produce a great look (if your careful) but for a high end motion project there would be some serious discussion on where the money went.

Then somebody has to view it.   I have clients that can't view a 2k prorezz without restarting their I-macs, and that's at 4:2:2.   I had one european agency ask for an uncompressed 3 minute video with produced at 2k 4:4:4 and yes we could conform it out but they never could view it.

Sure there are third party graphic cards, breakout boxes, ways to view high end motion, but how many print art directors working on a two year old I mac are going to have that equipment?

There may come a time where one camera does all, but i seriously doubt it.  I don't think even one still camera can do it all, but as still photographers we're somewhat spoiled.

So $35,000 for a digital back seems like a lot, $10,000 for the Pentax seems like a bargain, a d800 seems like a miracle.

Now like Stefen, I think the phase $35,000 back is a huge bite into a photographer's budget, regardless of their billing, considering what everything in production costs today.

Also you need to tack on a new computer to run C1 7, so your really at $39,000 plus body and lenses and that is getting into high territory given the fact we all know that the electronic mantra is to up the mpx in 18 months time, especially when Nikon or Canon comes out with 40 mpx for $5,000.

Pentax could find an opening if they built a tethering suite and got more and a little less costly lenses out in the market, but Pentax seems to be a company that dribbles out information at a very slow rate.

I must admit I'm a little surprised that with adding cmos that none of the camera makers has offered a mirrorless solution, but maybe I'm dreaming of flying cars.

IMO

BC



« Last Edit: February 18, 2014, 01:16:53 am by ErikKaffehr »
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Vladimirovich

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See Capture One, 7.x or the Iridient raw developer.

I saw - not impressed... neither vs E-M1 (w/o AA) nor vs A7 (with AA)... now granted Fuji has experience in color second only to Kodak and X-A1 shows that xtrans was/is really a marketing trick... and not that successfull either... hopefull Fuji will trop that when they migrate to 24mp sensors
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eronald

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James,

This stuff is coming; I'm sure that Sony have the hardware up and running at full video rate in their labs. I can read the signs. How long it will take to come to market is anybody's guess.

I really don't know about usability - but don't expect progress to stand still: Remember how the 5D2 came from nowhere overnight, a stealth "feature" embedded in a vanilla prosumer dSLR, that changed the face of the whole video/small budget film/TV industry.
 
You and I know that print is dying. But hi-rez video content is just being born.

Edmund

PS. BTW, I used to be a computer *scientist*. That means I and my friends would routinely run computations on farms of workstations for thousands of hours. The expense didn't frighten us - it was what we were supposed to do. And the methods we previewed would then a few years later run on a telephone or a games console. Such is progress, the extraordinarily expensive experience of jet flying reduced in just a few years to the banale aspects of getting one's colostomy bag inspected :)
« Last Edit: February 17, 2014, 05:19:12 pm by eronald »
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BernardLanguillier

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Such is progress, the extraordinarily expensive experience of jet flying reduced in just a few years to the banale aspects of getting one's colostomy bag inspected :)

LOL

Cheers,
Bernard
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