Is the new Pentax 645 a game changer?: 10k USD, 100k+ ISO, 3fps, movie mode!!

I will still get an IQ250 for 35k USD!

5 (7.1%)

I will still get a Hassy for 25k!

2 (2.9%)

I just might switch to Pentax!

25 (35.7%)

I will get Pentax as a second MF camera!

11 (15.7%)

P1 / Hassy will need to lower prices or else lose market share!

27 (38.6%)

Total Members Voted: 58

[eronald]

I think the Pentax will become the workhorse "marriage" camera in Japan and Korea within a year, which means thousands of sales. Phase are an entertaining brand, but ultimately something needs to replace the ubiquituous Hassy, and $80K systems (two bodies, lenses) are not going to cut it in the current economy.

Edmund

[Ken R]

The 645D was not a big hit for several reasons. The main one being that it just did not have much (if any) Image Quality advantages over the D800E. Resolution was about the same and Dynamic Range a touch less on the Pentax. The 645D II changes that (from the info available so far). As a camera body the 645D is just about the best one can get in Medium Format for field use. It is weather sealed, the AF works very well, it feels solid in hand and has enough features and controls that one does not feel that one is giving up a whole lot when compared to the latest DSLRs.

For wide angle Landscapes I still think that the PhaseOne 60 and 80MP backs along with tech camera lenses and bodies are untouched in regards to absolute image quality potential. The sheer amount of resolution and control is just in a whole nother level.

The IQ250 tests on tech cameras look promising but keep in mind that you give up quite a bit of angle of view when using any lens (compared to the 60/80mp with its larger sensors) so wide angle capability is quite limited.

The downsides of the Pentax 645D have been mentioned many times. Mainly very limited service and support in the US, limited tethering capability (if any), tethering reliability and functionality is also limited, lens line (current, new lenses) is also limited and new/used lenses vary in mechanical and optical quality. (although like the Mamiya, there are plenty of legacy lenses available at great prices). Also, No AF leaf shutter lenses are available for the Pentax.

[sbernthal]

From my point of view, "what is the best camera" can be interpreted in two ways:

1. What camera produces the best images in varying and difficult conditions? Canon / Nikon
2. What camera produces the best images in ideal/controlled conditions and also tethered? Phase/Hasselblad

Pentax seem to be introducing some kind of hybrid, which will not be able to beat Phase in ideal conditions, and also will not be able to beat 1Dx in harsh conditions. I'm sure there's a segment of consumers that is waiting for it, but I would be very surprised if it turned out to be a "game changer".

[eronald]

From my point of view, "what is the best camera" can be interpreted in two ways:

1. What camera produces the best images in varying and difficult conditions? Canon / Nikon
2. What camera produces the best images in ideal/controlled conditions and also tethered? Phase/Hasselblad

Pentax seem to be introducing some kind of hybrid, which will not be able to beat Phase in ideal conditions, and also will not be able to beat 1Dx in harsh conditions. I'm sure there's a segment of consumers that is waiting for it, but I would be very surprised if it turned out to be a "game changer".

The new CMOS sensor does digital output. Pentax should do as well as Phase and Hassy in any third party converter from the quality point of view, provided Pentax can get the heat dissipation issues under control.

I would be very surprised if Pentax with its huge resources and experience cannot put some stellar lenses out there. And there is one thing we all know: As soon as there are buyers, there is supply.

Let's be clear about one thing: Pentax have real MF experience, internal lens design teams, production teams, existing distribution channels, working 35mm camera software that has given them image processing experience, and a very respected name. Oh, and yes they even already have one "tryout" camera out there which has been well received.

These are not lightweights, amateurs or idiots, with a "good enough mentality" like all the Phase groupies here portray them. They are serious business people with staying power, and ability to invest. And if that weren't enough, they have the support of Samsung who know a thing or two about electronics.

I think that Leica has demonstrated quite well that expertise in camera design can rapidly translate into a competitive MF product; there is no reason that Pentax should not be able to put out a lens line if Leica has done so.

Edmund

[sbernthal]

Camera building is a very complicate business that takes many years to perfect into market leadership.
Pentax, for sure, have excellent skills in building camera bodies.
Regarding lenses, the game now is different than what it used to be, and their good past does not guarantee that they would be able to compete against the best in class of today. Their MF lens line have been severely lacking for years - what is the reason for that I do not know, but I am also not completely sure they will be able to roll out a full range of the highest quality lenses. I don't know how much that costs and how much it takes, but judging by how other companies do it, it sounds excruciating.
As far as sensors, making a sensor that produces the best possible picture is a very special game.
Still to this day, with all of their resources, Canon and Nikon are still not able to match Phase and leaf in image quality.
Only some of it is because they are using smaller sensors - the colors I get from my 5D3 are much worse than what I get from my Credo.
It was the same with all my past Canons and Leafs.
Nobody is saying that Pentax is not a serious company - but I think it is very hard to say that for sure they will be able to produce a system that will give equal or better image quality than Phase.

Regarding Leica, it took them many years to roll out their S lenses line.
In the first 2-3 years their system was not viable for most professionals because the lens line was incomplete.
For me their macro lens today is insufficient and I will not use that system because of that (1:2, f/22).

[eronald]

Camera building is a very complicate business that takes many years to perfect into market leadership.
Pentax, for sure, have excellent skills in building camera bodies.
Regarding lenses, the game now is different than what it used to be, and their good past does not guarantee that they would be able to compete against the best in class of today. Their MF lens line have been severely lacking for years - what is the reason for that I do not know, but I am also not completely sure they will be able to roll out a full range of the highest quality lenses. I don't know how much that costs and how much it takes, but judging by how other companies do it, it sounds excruciating.
As far as sensors, making a sensor that produces the best possible picture is a very special game.
Still to this day, with all of their resources, Canon and Nikon are still not able to match Phase and leaf in image quality.
Only some of it is because they are using smaller sensors - the colors I get from my 5D3 are much worse than what I get from my Credo.
It was the same with all my past Canons and Leafs.
Nobody is saying that Pentax is not a serious company - but I think it is very hard to say that for sure they will be able to produce a system that will give equal or better image quality than Phase.

The best argument Phase will have going for it is inertia, and its software.  What you are preaching is called "Fear, Uncertainty Doubt" in the computer industry, and was invented by IBM and reused with good results by Microsoft until the day they became unable with Vista to produce even a remotely usable product.

I had a Phase back. It had no decent lenses (Schneiders were not yet out), a bad body (Mamiya AFDII), and remarkably beautiful files on the days there was enough light to focus. Phase have since improved their product, but I am sure Pentax will be able to do at least as well; the sensor is not going to be an issue - Pentax have extensive experience in integrating electronic cameras.  

Edmund

[MrSmith]

"Camera building is a very complicate business that takes many years to perfect into market leadership.
Pentax, for sure, have excellent skills in building camera bodies."

So did mamiya yet Phase are still flogging a dead horse.

[BernardLanguillier]

I had a Phase back. It had no decent lenses (Schneiders were not yet out), a bad body (Mamiya AFDII), and very nice files on the days there was enough light to focus.

Exactly, Otus is not only Pentax's problem... This is not anymore about DSLRs catching up, it is about the superior look and technical qualities of the best 35mm recent lenses compared to MF SLR lenses as a whole. Sigma is there already as well.

MF players have a hard time building a lens line up in the first place. Keeping up with the pace of improvement defined by large volume players is simply impossible. Their small volume/high prices model is hurting badly in the lens area too.

It is already mostly the case with the D800 and will be even more clear with the next generation of bodies.

Cheers,
Bernard

[sbernthal]

You should have offered your colorimeter at $120, that was your mistake, not the dealer's.

If your Phase experience is from the days of AFD II, then the system you remember is totally diffent than what is offered today.

You didn't address the point of why should we think that Pentax can do what Canon can't do.

I'm not such a big fan of Phase, the company does a lot of things wrong. But their image quality under best conditions is the best (not in low light like you said), and their lenses are for sure far ahead of anything in 35mm - even the ones before Schneider.

[henrikfoto]

"I'm not such a big fan of Phase, the company does a lot of things wrong. But their image quality under best conditions is the best (not in low light like you said), and their lenses are for sure far ahead of anything in 35mm - even the ones before Schneider."



I don't agree on this. I would say the best lenses for Canon/Nikon now are at least as good as the new
Schneider-lenses for Phase one. Some are better in most ways.

[henrikfoto]

I love the Phase One and Leaf backs, but I am afraid the only real advantage they will have
over Pentax in the future will be that the backs can be put on tecnical cameras.

If pentax wants, what will just a 50 mp cmos-back cost from them?  5.000$???

[BernardLanguillier]

I love the Phase One and Leaf backs, but I am afraid the only real advantage they will have
over Pentax in the future will be that the backs can be put on tecnical cameras.

If pentax wants, what will just a 50 mp cmos-back cost from them?  5.000$???

Probably no more than 1,000 US$.

Thanks to Pentax.

Cheers,
Bernard

[BernardLanguillier]

You didn't address the point of why should we think that Pentax can do what Canon can't do.

As far as Canon goes, it clearly seems that someone very influential inside the company has decisive opinions about 3 things:
- growth is in video,
- the 5DIII/6D sensor is good enough for photographers,
- Canon's sensors will remain an in house thing.

So their current failure in the high end is the result of some executive decisions/mental blocks.

Just like some people inside Nikon used to think that high iso image quality was good enough with their ridiculous D2H.

So Pentax can mostly because they want to.

Cheers,
Bernard

[robdickinson]

I'm not sure canon are failing in the high end at all.

1Dx sales have been crazy , its the sports camera to go for.

5d3 sales have been crazy. OK its not a 14 stop 36mp camera but for 98% of people it is the best all round shooting machine this side of $10k. FPS, af, build ergonomics its a complete tool and a great wedding/pj/sports tog camera.

6d must be selling like mad too (this is really a 5dmk3 to be fair, the 5d3 is more like a mythical 3d).

70d again must be selling like mad.

And canon is trucking glass out like its candy.

The 645D mkII will eat some canon high end sales in limited areas, those that used 1dsmkIII and want more resolution and havnt gone to nikon.

[BernardLanguillier]

I'm not sure canon are failing in the high end at all.

1Dx sales have been crazy , its the sports camera to go for.

5d3 sales have been crazy. OK its not a 14 stop 36mp camera but for 98% of people it is the best all round shooting machine this side of $10k. FPS, af, build ergonomics its a complete tool and a great wedding/pj/sports tog camera.

The high end I meant is the 2% you are talking about here (although I think it is more like 10% but we'll never know for sure). My guess is that ~75% of the contributors at LL fit in those 2%. Sports cameras are a draw between the 1Dx and the D4s and I don't see that changing. That's a stable niche interesting about 0.2% of the DSLR market.

Besides, the 5DIII is the best all round camera for only one category of people, those already owning Canon glass. For the rest of the market, that best all round camera is the D800. The hordes of Canon shooters investing in the Sony a7r are a clear confirmation of this.

But anyway, great if you are happy about Canon's line up. I would clearly not if I had Canon glass and this view has nothing to do with the fact that I own many Nikon F lenses.

Cheers,
Bernard

[eronald]

Bernard,

Canon probably accounts for half the full-frame sensors sold, maybe for half of all SLRs. They have customised fabs of their own for sensors, so it makes sense for them to design their own. CMOS imagers are Canon's core competence. It will be interesting to see what process they move to for the next generation, and whether they make their own steppers for that.

Edmund

[Chris Livsey]

1Dx sales have been crazy , its the sports camera to go for.5d3 sales have been crazy
6d must be selling like mad too
70d again must be selling like mad.
And canon is trucking glass out like its candy.

Meanwhile in the real world:

For the year, DSLR sales were off about 15% to 13.8m units.
The results in Canon's Imaging group were not good. The first year-to-year decline in interchangeable lens cameras, for instance (-7% in shipments, with a further -1% decline predicted for the coming year)
Operating profit for the group was down slightly year-to-year for the Canon Imaging Group

http://www.dslrbodies.com/newsviews/camera-company-financials.html

[eronald]

This reflects the reduction of disposable  of a significant fraction of their customers. In the west, there are more very rich people who can and do buy Phase and Ferrari; fewer well of people who can afford to buy a new TV or an SLR.

Canon will still keep its CMOS tech because chips are one of their core competences; lenses are another.

Edmund

Meanwhile in the real world:

For the year, DSLR sales were off about 15% to 13.8m units.
The results in Canon's Imaging group were not good. The first year-to-year decline in interchangeable lens cameras, for instance (-7% in shipments, with a further -1% decline predicted for the coming year)
Operating profit for the group was down slightly year-to-year for the Canon Imaging Group

http://www.dslrbodies.com/newsviews/camera-company-financials.html

[sbernthal]

As a few people said, Canon is not failing to make a high end camera, they are just not interested.
Their 1Dx and 5D3 are dominating their segments, and by Canon's calculations the segment above that is not worth the effort of R&D and setting up production lines.
Phase is targeting the segment of absolutely best quality price doesn't matter - a totally different market segment with different behaviours.
They are benefiting from people with too much money on their hands who will buy anything as long as it is the best.

Pentax MF is trying to lodge itself in between those two segments - how much of a demand is there really for it, and would the revenues return the investment - IMO it is not a very clear yes.
To those who say Pentax will deliver a system of higher or equal quality than Phase - I would be very interested to see that come to pass, but also surprised.

[eronald]

[quote author=sbernthal link=topic=87281.msg710679#msg710679
To those who say Pentax will deliver a system of higher or equal quality than Phase - I would be very interested to see that come to pass, but also surprised.
[/quote]

My impression is that most of the heavy lifting is born by Sony's new digital sensor so I don't think file quality is an unknown at all, provided the sensor is fed clean power and heat is adequately dissipated.

The role of the backend in the new cameras seems to be basically limited to setting up the sensor, cycling it for capture and spooling the data to file.  Pentax already have a working MF camera which is respected, and a line of 35mm devices, so they know how to handle the data streams.

On the other hand, tethering is a multitasking problem that Phase have solved but Pentax have not previously addressed, and I would assume that for tethered use Phase will still lead by a fair distance.

The real headache for Phase will come from the movie use of these sensors, as at some point people will get the idea that if the movie can be streamed out it may become easier to do nonstrobe imaging and simply isolate still  frames on a computer - with the additional ability of going to super-resolution.

Edmund