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Author Topic: Let's play a little game of what camera shot what.  (Read 16915 times)

Theodoros

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Re: Let's play a little game of what camera shot what.
« Reply #40 on: February 11, 2014, 04:23:40 pm »

I think this test is a "victory" for those that say it is (very) hard to see a difference
between MFD and DSLR.

Its more important how you develop your files than which camera you use. ( regarding IQ ).

Maybe not the result the OP was looking for after reading his other posts.
Although I disagree…. I would like to ask you if that is the reason you sold your P65+ and now sell the rest of your Contax system?

IMO, DSLRs are now to a level that studio and fashion photography has little to benefit from using MF, it's lighting that makes the difference and the ability of the photographer to set it up or take advantage of it… (I will agree with you there). But for still-life, architectural, artistic (directed) or some (demanding) landscape, MF is still the king…
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Christoph C. Feldhaim

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Re: Let's play a little game of what camera shot what.
« Reply #41 on: February 11, 2014, 04:31:52 pm »

I think Synn shot all three with a Sigma DP something and processed them slightly different to fool us ... :P

henrikfoto

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Re: Let's play a little game of what camera shot what.
« Reply #42 on: February 11, 2014, 04:42:09 pm »

Like, they were all shot with a GoPro Hero 3 Black?

Cheers,
Bart


 No it's scans from a polaroid ;D
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Willow Photography

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Re: Let's play a little game of what camera shot what.
« Reply #43 on: February 11, 2014, 05:33:01 pm »

Although I disagree…. I would like to ask you if that is the reason you sold your P65+ and now sell the rest of your Contax system?

IMO, DSLRs are now to a level that studio and fashion photography has little to benefit from using MF, it's lighting that makes the difference and the ability of the photographer to set it up or take advantage of it… (I will agree with you there). But for still-life, architectural, artistic (directed) or some (demanding) landscape, MF is still the king…

So you think it is easy to see the difference?

Actually, some years ago, another photographer published 10 pictures here, taken with 4-5 different cameras.
In my reply I nailed 8 or 9 of them and even could tell the Leaf from the P1.
Some experience and a little luck of course. ;-).

Today I am not sure I could do the same.

Even if I have sold my P65+ and now sell the Contax kit, I will not rule out that I will re-enter MFD again.
But for my line of work, the D800E makes my job easier and the IQ is 95% of the P65+/Contax.
The clients for sure doesn't see the difference.



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Theodoros

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Re: Let's play a little game of what camera shot what.
« Reply #44 on: February 11, 2014, 06:00:08 pm »

So you think it is easy to see the difference?

Actually, some years ago, another photographer published 10 pictures here, taken with 4-5 different cameras.
In my reply I nailed 8 or 9 of them and even could tell the Leaf from the P1.
Some experience and a little luck of course. ;-).

Today I am not sure I could do the same.

Even if I have sold my P65+ and now sell the Contax kit, I will not rule out that I will re-enter MFD again.
But for my line of work, the D800E makes my job easier and the IQ is 95% of the P65+/Contax.
The clients for sure doesn't see the difference.




I was just curious to your view on the matter, you see I also use C645 and D800E… My back is the Imacon 528c (MS is absolutely essential for what I do), but I've also tried P65+ on an M645 and I have to say, I wasn't as impressed as I expected to be (liked it, but not thrilled). May be It was because of the (older) M645 lenses, but I also tried an HY6+75LV within a month and I have to say that combination impressed me. Now, because my first back on the Contax was the E-motion 22 and because I loved the colour and DR (in single shot) better than the 528c I now use, I am thinking to add a single shot back on my Contax and a lean towards the Dalsa 33mp sensor more than the 60mp one… I would like your opinion on the matter...
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JV

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Re: Let's play a little game of what camera shot what.
« Reply #45 on: February 11, 2014, 06:21:25 pm »

A, B and C in that order.

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Theodoros

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Re: Let's play a little game of what camera shot what.
« Reply #46 on: February 11, 2014, 06:25:47 pm »

A, B and C in that order.


You (and others) may have missed the Q… which is what is what….
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JV

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Re: Let's play a little game of what camera shot what.
« Reply #47 on: February 11, 2014, 06:30:35 pm »

You (and others) may have missed the Q… which is what is what….

A being MFDB, the other 2 35mm.
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synn

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Re: Let's play a little game of what camera shot what.
« Reply #48 on: February 11, 2014, 06:48:12 pm »

Wow, that's a lot of replies! Much more than  I expected!  ;D

Thanks for the participation folks. This test to me, is a good indicator that taste is very subjective. It also tells me what people generally expect a "Medium format file" to look like.

Some people noticed that they have all been sharpened properly. That's correct and it's my first curveball. Obviously, the 35mm files had to be sharpened more, but I wanted to make them all look more or less the same.

Second curveball was that I shot these with a golden reflector. This means that with the "Flash" white balance, the subject should be a bit yellowy-warm and not neutral. Are we getting some ideas now? ;)

Before I go further, I want to address this post. Out of all those who posted, this post nailed it. Sareesh, I know you work in motion and also have some experience in color grading, so good work!

First of all, thank you, Sandeep, for taking the time to post this.

Never shot with MFDB, but I prefer B. In spite of the wider angle, I feel it has more 'depth', and the dress looks more real and less 'muddier'. I like the hair in B too.

C looks more color-neutral, though it is awfully similar to A - almost like it was just zoomed in a bit! If they are different cameras, it is strange how they are very similar - too hard to pick between them.

Can't wait for the results.

So... Here are the results.

Image A is a D800 image, processed with the IQ 250 profile. I can totally see how this appeals to a lot of people. It's very contrasty out of the box and is leaning towards magenta, which most people tend to like.

Image B is the Credo 40 file (Shocker!). This was processed with the "Portrait soft" profile, which is a lot less contrasty than most default camera profile. I can also see how this does not appeal to a lot of people.

Image C is a Canon 5D Mark III file, processed with the IQ250 profile. I am actually surprised no one picked this one correctly.


So, which one do I prefer?

D800:

The IQ 250 profile is a game changer. It has instantly made the D800 files a lot more usable. More than what any Nikon specific profile in any software has managed to, till date. This leads me to believe that P1 has worked on the IQ 250 sensor inside out.
However, the file still has a global color look for my taste. with a bit of red in everything. It loses the subtleties between tones, which is something I do not like (More of that later).

5D3:

This file was the hardest to work on. The default profile is godawful (Even after color passport adjustment), the 1Ds II profile was a bit better and the IQ 250 profile showed the most promise. It still took a lot of work to get a decent image out of it. Personally, it's still a bit too  "Flat" for my liking and not from a tone curve perspective. It does isolate the subtle tones a bit better than the D800, but lacks the "Punch".

Credo:

The "Intentional color cast" notwithstanding, I prefer this (Big surprise, I know). It is the only one that got the golden reflector induced warmth right. It also has the most subtle tones of the three. This is most evident in the cheeks where the blush gradually fades off and the skin shows. The range of tones in this file is far more than the other two.

p.s. Why is the background green? Simply because I cooled the shadows down a tad for shits and giggles.  ;D

Does it all matter? No, not really. Like I said in another thread the other day, shoot with what you like instead of arguing over profitability and whatever. I like shooting with my MF gear and I enjoy that process far more than I do with 35mm. That's all that matters to ME. If another format does the same for you, enjoy that and ignore the technobabble.

Was I "Expecting" any particular result? No again. Like I said, I am not aiming to change anyone's opinions. Also, I have been shooting portraits long enough to know just how subjective it can get. The thread did satisfy my curiosity about how people's opinions vary wildly when doing a blind test.

Here's another pretty picture of the pretty model to finish off.



Do I even need to say what camera was used to shoot it? ;)
« Last Edit: February 11, 2014, 06:50:14 pm by synn »
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EricWHiss

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Re: Let's play a little game of what camera shot what.
« Reply #49 on: February 11, 2014, 07:15:04 pm »

hah!  Those were some good curveballs Synn!

I was wondering if B was the Credo even though I preferred the A…  now I know, but even I did have a hard time with this one.  I guess I go for a more saturated image. Image C was the only one that looked really flat (as in 2d) to me.   How much more sharpening did you add? And did you change the saturation on the files? Also I wondered if you used a different f/stop for the Credo 40 vs the DSLR's?

What's interesting - a month or so back, someone posted a link to a guess the format slideshow and it seemed I was doing pretty well on guessing there.   
Couple comments  - the skin profiles in C1 - they do bring the range of skin colors together to help make skin look smoother.  If you set the same file to 'product' you'll see a lot more variation and color detail in the skin (or anything that includes those colors).  Also the credo 40 is the smallest footprint of the MFDB these days.
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BlasR

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Re: Let's play a little game of what camera shot what.
« Reply #50 on: February 11, 2014, 07:21:02 pm »

Great, so keep those DSLR'S, I stay with MDF..So lets move one now.  I hope its another post just for those love DSRL..I like real things.
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synn

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Re: Let's play a little game of what camera shot what.
« Reply #51 on: February 11, 2014, 08:06:57 pm »

hah!  Those were some good curveballs Synn!

I was wondering if B was the Credo even though I preferred the A…  now I know, but even I did have a hard time with this one.  I guess I go for a more saturated image. Image C was the only one that looked really flat (as in 2d) to me.   How much more sharpening did you add? And did you change the saturation on the files? Also I wondered if you used a different f/stop for the Credo 40 vs the DSLR's?

What's interesting - a month or so back, someone posted a link to a guess the format slideshow and it seemed I was doing pretty well on guessing there.   
Couple comments  - the skin profiles in C1 - they do bring the range of skin colors together to help make skin look smoother.  If you set the same file to 'product' you'll see a lot more variation and color detail in the skin (or anything that includes those colors).  Also the credo 40 is the smallest footprint of the MFDB these days.

Thanks, Eric.

For the 35mm files, I added 1px sharpening in Focus magic. To the careful eye, they do look a tad "Artifactey", but does get them closer to  the MF files.

Saturation is more or less as it were from the profiles. The "Portrait soft" Leaf profile has lower saturation
than the rest.

Can't remember the f/ stop now, but I believe the D800 and credo were at f/8 at ISO 50 and the 5D3 a stop smaller at ISO 100.

You're absolutely right about the color profiles too. I have observed that the product/ portrait settings work best for my portrait work. I used the "Portrait soft" option for this test just to add to the confusion.

The image I posted in the previous post is incidentally from the Credo, set to Portrait and processed using the workflow that I usually use for portrait work.
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pixjohn

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Re: Let's play a little game of what camera shot what.
« Reply #52 on: February 11, 2014, 08:51:37 pm »

I thought A was MFDB, I guess I was also wrong also.
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Let's play a little game of what camera shot what.
« Reply #53 on: February 12, 2014, 12:18:16 am »

Hi,

Interesting. My preference was A, C, B. The reason I preferred A was rendition of the darks in the hair. Synn made a good job making the images looking similar.

What I found interesting/bad is that you can take a profile made for the IQ 250 and apply to both Nikon D800 and Canon and still get better rendition than the "native" profiles made for each camera.

Says something about the quality of profiling :-(

Best regards
Erik
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Fine_Art

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Re: Let's play a little game of what camera shot what.
« Reply #54 on: February 12, 2014, 12:32:01 am »

I thought A was MFDB, I guess I was also wrong also.

It's not a matter of wrong, they were processed with different tints, different sharpness (B in particular), different sizes. The main takeaway is the differences are small between different systems. Small enough that small differences in processing become dominant differences, at least on downsampled images. Nothing surprising.
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EricWHiss

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Re: Let's play a little game of what camera shot what.
« Reply #55 on: February 12, 2014, 12:54:30 am »

I wasn't wrong about which was the MFDB file (though admittedly not confident enough to declare it), but what surprised me was that I preferred A mostly for color and a bit more contrasty. Total sucker for the redder lips.   What I learned most from this is that I could probably be adding more saturation and contrast to my own files.  No chance I'm going to give up any of my MF cameras - and I have a lot of them - not just Rolleiflex's - and go out and pick up a D800 or A7R.   
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synn

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Re: Let's play a little game of what camera shot what.
« Reply #56 on: February 12, 2014, 01:12:23 am »

I wasn't wrong about which was the MFDB file (though admittedly not confident enough to declare it), but what surprised me was that I preferred A mostly for color and a bit more contrasty. Total sucker for the redder lips.   What I learned most from this is that I could probably be adding more saturation and contrast to my own files.  No chance I'm going to give up any of my MF cameras - and I have a lot of them - not just Rolleiflex's - and go out and pick up a D800 or A7R.   

Pretty much my thoughts too.
The lesser contrast and saturation in the original sample is purely because of the "Portrait soft" profile. Which is why I posted the second image to show how saturated and "Full" and MF file can be.

The DSLR files used in this test, while contrasty and punchy, lack the tonal gradations between shades (Like the blush and the skin on the cheek, as mentioned) in the MF file and no profile can bring those back.

My personal takeaway from this exercise is that while I will continue to use my MF kit as the main system for portraiture, I am much happier with the 35mm files with the IQ250 profile than I was ever before.
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Christoph C. Feldhaim

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Re: Let's play a little game of what camera shot what.
« Reply #57 on: February 12, 2014, 01:38:06 am »

Seems we learned about the importance of profiling,
which sort of supports my personal theory,
that things usually fail because of the basic stuff,
not the sophisticated stuff.

Great test and thanks for posting it.
Cheers
~Chris

UlfKrentz

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Re: Let's play a little game of what camera shot what.
« Reply #58 on: February 12, 2014, 01:47:41 am »

We have never used the portrait profiles for our Leaf backs, actually I was always wondering why they have been added. Now I know, to make MF look worse than 35FF :-)
The one to finish is the credo with product profile?

Cheers!

synn

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Re: Let's play a little game of what camera shot what.
« Reply #59 on: February 12, 2014, 01:49:45 am »

We have never used the portrait profiles for our Leaf backs, actually I was always wondering why they have been added. Now I know, to make MF look worse than 35FF :-)
The one to finish is the credo with product profile?

Cheers!

Yep, that's the Credo, but that's the "Portrait" profile. It's only a tad less saturated than the "Product" profile.
I prefer to use the product profile when there are brightly colored fabrics involved.

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