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Author Topic: Let's play a little game of what camera shot what.  (Read 12341 times)

synn

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Let's play a little game of what camera shot what.
« on: February 11, 2014, 03:25:32 AM »

We've had these MFD vs 35mm arguments for far too long. To be honest, I have no illusions that either camp will change their opinion ever. But if we are to debate endlessly, might as well do it based on some images and not yet another graph.

Below are three images shot  on the same day. Same studio, same lights, same model. Two are with 35mm full frame cameras. One is with an MFDB.

All images were first processed in Capture 1 Pro 7.2 (With the most suitable profiles and a reference image of a color checker taken with each camera). and finished in Photoshop as 16 bit, prophotoRGB TIFFs (Final sharpening and skin retouching). All were retouched the same way.
Finally, they were exported as 2000px wide JPEGs in sRGB and laid side by side.



Since the forum resizes images automatically, just right click the picture and select "View image" to see it full size.

For the pixel peeping types, here are crops of the faces:



The task is simple.

1) Guess which camera shot which image.

2) Say which image appeals to you and why.

Mandatory disclaimer:

1) No "You should have processed it this way", "Send me the RAW files", "Should'a done this, should'a done that".
 No.
I did a test based on my workflow and my shooting style. If you prefer a different shooting methodology, feel free to conduct your own test.

2) No CCD, CMOS, CFA, CIA, NSA and whatever.
You have 86740474 threads to argue over all that jargon. This thread is only about looking at the images and saying what you think of them. Simple.

So without further delays, go ahead and have fun. Let's see if there is such a thing as the "MF look".
I'm gonna step back and be a neutral party until we have enough responses.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2014, 03:29:37 AM by synn »
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torger

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Re: Let's play a little game of what camera shot what.
« Reply #1 on: February 11, 2014, 03:37:11 AM »

It's a fun game, I like it!  :)

I like A the best, B the least and C is inbetween. I don't see huge differences though and I think all are fine, although B seems to need further tuning.

I base the liking most on skin tone, contrast and highlights.

The B is too yellow (can see it on the background even) and crushed highlights, and I suspect that's the D800, but it's a bit of cheating as you've posted D800 images before which had yellow tone ;)

I'd guess A is with the Credo 40, B with the D800 and C is some other 35mm.

In terms of look I think it's about CFA, profiling and curves, the Dalsa sensor provides a good CFA to work with and Phase One has done a very good job handling it. Sensor size and lens is less important. But it doesn't really matter, if camera X provides the best workflow out of the box to suit your style and subjects it can be worth it.

What works for you is what matters. I've seen other photographers make very good results with the D800, but I don't know how they do the processing. As far as I understand it takes quite a bit of tuning to get it right, while the MF systems generally has a great default workflow for this type of photography.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2014, 03:53:35 AM by torger »
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Dustbak

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Re: Let's play a little game of what camera shot what.
« Reply #2 on: February 11, 2014, 04:04:30 AM »

I like A the best followed by C and last B. I cannot tell why but I just do. I cannot say which camera is which but I can say what I like most. A because the color appears richer, shadows nicer, 'less screamy and more creamy' so to speak. C has that too but too a lesser extend. B is 'more screamy and less creamy'..

I had not yet read Torger's comment but it seems we have the same order of liking.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2014, 04:06:01 AM by Dustbak »
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Let's play a little game of what camera shot what.
« Reply #3 on: February 11, 2014, 04:20:09 AM »

Hi,

Good demo!

I need to look more on a real monitor, but looking at my iPad 2, I would say I like A best and B least. A has best shadow detail and highlights. Hair on B is turning black. It seems to me that hair is stipled on B and C.

So initial guess is A is best, fllowed by C and B is coming last.

Best regards
Erik


We've had these MFD vs 35mm arguments for far too long. To be honest, I have no illusions that either camp will change their opinion ever. But if we are to debate endlessly, might as well do it based on some images and not yet another graph.

Below are three images shot  on the same day. Same studio, same lights, same model. Two are with 35mm full frame cameras. One is with an MFDB.

All images were first processed in Capture 1 Pro 7.2 (With the most suitable profiles and a reference image of a color checker taken with each camera). and finished in Photoshop as 16 bit, prophotoRGB TIFFs (Final sharpening and skin retouching). All were retouched the same way.
Finally, they were exported as 2000px wide JPEGs in sRGB and laid side by side.



Since the forum resizes images automatically, just right click the picture and select "View image" to see it full size.

For the pixel peeping types, here are crops of the faces:



The task is simple.

1) Guess which camera shot which image.

2) Say which image appeals to you and why.

Mandatory disclaimer:

1) No "You should have processed it this way", "Send me the RAW files", "Should'a done this, should'a done that".
 No.
I did a test based on my workflow and my shooting style. If you prefer a different shooting methodology, feel free to conduct your own test.

2) No CCD, CMOS, CFA, CIA, NSA and whatever.
You have 86740474 threads to argue over all that jargon. This thread is only about looking at the images and saying what you think of them. Simple.

So without further delays, go ahead and have fun. Let's see if there is such a thing as the "MF look".
I'm gonna step back and be a neutral party until we have enough responses.

gerald.d

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Re: Let's play a little game of what camera shot what.
« Reply #4 on: February 11, 2014, 05:00:20 AM »

I don't shoot people, and never really pay any attention to shots of people.

So I have no idea based on the model.

Based on the backdrop, I'd guess C is the MFDB.
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Theodoros

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Re: Let's play a little game of what camera shot what.
« Reply #5 on: February 11, 2014, 05:10:50 AM »

Easy…  ;) A. is your Credo… B. Is a Canon C. Is your D800 processed with C1, but using IQ 250 profile!  ;D
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Kitty

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Re: Let's play a little game of what camera shot what.
« Reply #6 on: February 11, 2014, 05:15:15 AM »

A = MFDB
The retouching is good. All images were properly unsharp mask so it looks pretty close.
But MFDB always has no halo on the contrast edge eg. hair, body&background. The tone gradation is smoother than DSLR.
IMHO
« Last Edit: February 11, 2014, 05:37:18 AM by Kitty »
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sixbysix

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Re: Let's play a little game of what camera shot what.
« Reply #7 on: February 11, 2014, 05:30:06 AM »

A and B look almost identical in terms of composition, so i'm thinking they're the 35mms. Therefore i'd assume C is an MFDB, though i'm prepared to be shot down on it.

Good comparison, and one I should remember next time I think "hey, I really should consider getting a loan for a Phase One" (though if someone would invent a way to use leaf shutter lenses on a Nikon, it would be altogether more conclusive!)
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JerryReed

Re: Let's play a little game of what camera shot what.
« Reply #8 on: February 11, 2014, 05:39:22 AM »

All images are certainly well done.  I prefer the skin tones of C, the tones seem to transition from darker areas to lighter ones more smoothly.  I did not look at the enlarged images.

Jerry
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Theodoros

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Re: Let's play a little game of what camera shot what.
« Reply #9 on: February 11, 2014, 05:46:15 AM »

All images are certainly well done.  I prefer the skin tones of C, the tones seem to transition from darker areas to lighter ones more smoothly.  I did not look at the enlarged images.

Jerry
Me too (on the posted pictures)..., but I think that A is a bit (slightly) over saturated…
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FranciscoDisilvestro

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Re: Let's play a little game of what camera shot what.
« Reply #10 on: February 11, 2014, 05:50:21 AM »

I like A the most, and I would say that's from the MFDB.

Sareesh Sudhakaran

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Re: Let's play a little game of what camera shot what.
« Reply #11 on: February 11, 2014, 05:53:47 AM »

First of all, thank you, Sandeep, for taking the time to post this.

Never shot with MFDB, but I prefer B. In spite of the wider angle, I feel it has more 'depth', and the dress looks more real and less 'muddier'. I like the hair in B too.

C looks more color-neutral, though it is awfully similar to A - almost like it was just zoomed in a bit! If they are different cameras, it is strange how they are very similar - too hard to pick between them.

Can't wait for the results.
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aaron

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Re: Let's play a little game of what camera shot what.
« Reply #12 on: February 11, 2014, 06:06:19 AM »

"Guess which camera shot which image"

I think the fact that you suggest its a guess either way tells its own story.

Nice images reglardless of format.

Thanks,
Aaron
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henrikfoto

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Re: Let's play a little game of what camera shot what.
« Reply #13 on: February 11, 2014, 06:12:29 AM »

I think A is a MF back.
C looks worst.
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Manoli

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Re: Let's play a little game of what camera shot what.
« Reply #14 on: February 11, 2014, 06:45:04 AM »

A has the poorest tonal gradation - face/cheek highlight to shadow transitions are the harshest.
Very hard to differentiate between B&C based on 'hair' or resolution,
You say 'identical lighting' but even in this test the shadow under the chin and the LHS hair highlight in B&C are different, but assuming the MFDB should give you the smoothest tones I would say 'C'.

In short - it's a toss-up between B&C as to which one I prefer.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2014, 07:07:11 AM by Manoli »
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Let's play a little game of what camera shot what.
« Reply #15 on: February 11, 2014, 07:44:10 AM »

Can you provide the contacts of the model?  ;)

Cheers,
Bernard
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AreBee

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Re: Let's play a little game of what camera shot what.
« Reply #16 on: February 11, 2014, 08:37:13 AM »

Synn,

Quote
Guess which camera shot which image.

I am unable to identify which image was shot with MFD. Can I see (marginal) differences between images? Yes. Can I identify the MFD image other than out of blind luck? No. Therefore, my guess is just that: a guess, and like aaron, I consider that to tell its own story.

My guess is that C is the MFD image for the same reason stated by Gerald - the background. My rationale is that the background for C is significantly dissimilar from A and B, and since you mentioned (you would have increased the validity of the test if you hadn't) that two images were shot with 35mm and one with MFD...

Quote
Let's see if there is such a thing as the "MF look".

Judging by the variation in responses posted thus far, apparently not.
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BartvanderWolf

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Re: Let's play a little game of what camera shot what.
« Reply #17 on: February 11, 2014, 08:41:02 AM »

We've had these MFD vs 35mm arguments for far too long.

Hi Sandeep,

You are suggesting that the differences are static, non-changing, but new sensor generations in general improve over older ones. So, yesterday's opinion may differ from today's, and today's may differ from tomorrow's.  Therefore the discussion will not stop, as long as technology develops.

Quote
To be honest, I have no illusions that either camp will change their opinion ever.

That's an odd position. I for one, am not in a camp, but will judge based on the presented evidence and on how well the equipment is suited for the purpose.

Quote
But if we are to debate endlessly, might as well do it based on some images and not yet another graph.

As long as the images are somewhat comparable. Graphs and charts will allow a more objective judgment with fewer variables to consider.

Quote
Below are three images shot  on the same day. Same studio, same lights, same model. Two are with 35mm full frame cameras. One is with an MFDB.

They are reasonably close, close enough for comparison, but the Raw conversion process will always benefit one over the other, depending on what one is looking at. Some camera profiles are better than others for certain subjects (which is why a number of people say they prefer Leaf backs for portraits / skin color). Both Leaf and PhaseOne backs use the same basic (CCD) sensor technology, yet some prefer Leaf for one type of subject, and PhaseOne for another type.

With that out of the way, A = MFDB, B and C are 35mm FF cameras (B is possibly a Canon, C is possibly a Nikon).
That is based on the aliasing character of A, and the sharpening Halo on B and C.

There is some difference in the color rendering, but that may (besides camera profile) also be caused by moving colored objects/surfaces/clothing close to the camera that seems to reflect some green on the subject. We have to assume that the flash emitted a constant color temperature, because changing the output power could introduce a slight shift in colorbalance, which could require a different correction in the Raw conversion process.

The highlights of A are a bit too desaturated for my taste, and the overall bias is more orange than yellow, which is apparently considered more pleasing with Asian types of skin color, or so I'm told.
The colors of B are slightly greener in the shadows, and the skintone in C looks desaturated (maybe Raw compression and noise reduction also caused a bit more smoothing, although that may also be due to CaptureOne's Detail settings for the specific camera model).

So for me the differences are mostly color mapping related, B needing a bit less green, and the others needing less desaturation. Of course, this is only going to jump out in a direct side by side comparision. The highlight roll-off is a function of tonecurve, and can be adjusted to taste.

Cheers,
Bart
« Last Edit: February 11, 2014, 08:44:06 AM by BartvanderWolf »
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gerald.d

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Re: Let's play a little game of what camera shot what.
« Reply #18 on: February 11, 2014, 08:46:29 AM »

Interesting to note that one person thinks A is too saturated, and another that it is too desaturated.

I think what this post has actually demonstrated is that no-one can agree on anything when it comes to people.

I'm definitely sticking with inanimate objects.
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BartvanderWolf

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Re: Let's play a little game of what camera shot what.
« Reply #19 on: February 11, 2014, 08:54:31 AM »

Interesting to note that one person thinks A is too saturated, and another that it is too desaturated.

Both are true, mid-tones for A are relatively orange (see blush under cheekbones) compared to the others, highlights are desaturated (look at the specular reflections on e.g. the lips). So it's more a question of what one is specifically looking at.

Quote
I think what this post has actually demonstrated is that no-one can agree on anything when it comes to people.

Taste is a difficult subject to quantify.

Quote
I'm definitely sticking with inanimate objects.

LOL, there is beauty in both, but it's still in the eye of the beholder and it depends on the occasion ...

Cheers,
Bart
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