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Author Topic: IQ250 14 stops DR  (Read 14115 times)

ErikKaffehr

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Re: IQ250 14 stops DR
« Reply #20 on: February 08, 2014, 08:10:17 am »

Hi,

I don't think so. I essentially always try to expose for the highlights, and I have never any problems with the shadows, if I need detail, it is there. I always shoot at base ISO when possible, but I care mostly about the histogram. But I have not found any advantage using higher ISO than base.

Which raw processor do you use? I am working with Lightroom.

Best regards
Erik


With the Sony chips at base ISO and at least 2 stops up in ISO you have a much better range of shadow detail when you underexpose for highlights.  I see this all the time with the D800 files.  Do you see it with the A99?  The trade off seems that when pushed for higher ISO the D800 seems to fine till 3200 past that and the files fall apart pretty quick.  Once the raw files from the IQ250 become more available it will be most interesting to see what the ISO range of 400 to 3200 looks like at full resolution.

Paul C

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Paul2660

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Re: IQ250 14 stops DR
« Reply #21 on: February 08, 2014, 08:26:08 am »

I am not sure I was clear.  In my experience the Sony chip just has more headroom at base ISO.  So if you are working in extreme light you can easily underexpose to hold te highlights from being blown.  I post the same file will easier push 2 to 2.5 stops in the shadows.  I saw this with the initial reviews of the D800 on this site and others.  The same underexposure with other cameras CMOS or CCD produced excessive noise in the shadows creating the need to bracket for exposure. This ability was important enough to me to invest in a Nikon heavily and the results have been worth it. 

I am assuming the IQ250 will have a similar ability. 

I use Capture One for Phase files and LR and CI on D800 files.  However I tend to lead with LR on D800 files as I don't like the stock camera profile phase has for the D800.

Paul C

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ErikKaffehr

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Re: IQ250 14 stops DR
« Reply #22 on: February 08, 2014, 08:57:16 am »

Hi,

The Sony chips (D800, IQ-250, SLT 99 etc.) have in common that the darks are very clean. This depends on the way ADC conversion is done. So it is easy protect highlights.

The Sony sensors have massively parallell ADC-s on the sensor. The tight integration of sensor and ADC-s keeps the noise down and because analog digital conversion is in parallell the ADC-s can process each pixel a longer time and advantage with the Wilkinson type ADC-s that are used.

Best regards
Erik



I am not sure I was clear.  In my experience the Sony chip just has more headroom at base ISO.  So if you are working in extreme light you can easily underexpose to hold te highlights from being blown.  I post the same file will easier push 2 to 2.5 stops in the shadows.  I saw this with the initial reviews of the D800 on this site and others.  The same underexposure with other cameras CMOS or CCD produced excessive noise in the shadows creating the need to bracket for exposure. This ability was important enough to me to invest in a Nikon heavily and the results have been worth it. 

I am assuming the IQ250 will have a similar ability. 

I use Capture One for Phase files and LR and CI on D800 files.  However I tend to lead with LR on D800 files as I don't like the stock camera profile phase has for the D800.

Paul C


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Theodoros

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Re: IQ250 14 stops DR
« Reply #23 on: February 08, 2014, 10:09:03 am »

Hi,

The Sony chips (D800, IQ-250, SLT 99 etc.) have in common that the darks are very clean.
 
No they are not! …Remember the files Sinn posted in comparison to his Credo back… It's the same with my D800E and (less so) with my D4… Low lights does keep information but colour falls apart developing colour casts… CCDs are much better when you "dig" for info in the darks… That's why I insist on the difference between DR that sensor records and usable DR… OTOH, you compare things while you insist to use LR to develop P45+ files… nobody else does that!
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Paul2660

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Re: IQ250 14 stops DR
« Reply #24 on: February 08, 2014, 11:03:21 am »

To each their own opinion that's what makes us all independent and not drones. 

In my testing I found the yes they are very clean. At the time of the announcement cleaner than any other full frame 35mm camera, CMOS or CCD. Search this site, read Michael's review of the D800.   I believe Synn's shot was at 6400 ISO where actually I don't expect anything to be that clean but I am not sure which shot.  Read the reviews at DxO as they all point to the same thing. 

I did the testing spent the time found that the Nikon D800 was amazingly clean at the ISO ranges of 100 to 400 allowing one composition where I could allow for underexposure of highlights and still have excellent shadow detail when those areas were pulled backup.  Detail that required exposure bracketing with other CMOS brands.  Resolution was not a big factor for me but the range DR  at base ISO 100 was. 

I reference both the very detailed review by Michael R with bookcase shot on this site or the early review by Fred Miranda where he tested the Nikon in Yosemite.  The hotel shot from Fred tells a lot. 

Photographers are moe getting the same with the  Sony a7 and A7r.

Paul C



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Vladimirovich

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Re: IQ250 14 stops DR
« Reply #25 on: February 08, 2014, 11:59:24 am »

No they are not! …Remember the files Sinn posted in comparison to his Credo back… It's the same with my D800E and (less so) with my D4… Low lights does keep information but colour falls apart developing colour casts… CCDs are much better when you "dig" for info in the darks… That's why I insist on the difference between DR that sensor records and usable DR… OTOH, you compare things while you insist to use LR to develop P45+ files… nobody else does that!
let me translate... "usable DR" is a subset of "DR that sensor records" where photon noise dominates and bigger dies of MFD cameras have an advantage just because of that, move deeper where readout associated noise dominates and you conveniently exclude that from your "DR"... card cheaters used to be beaten with candelabras, so that you know.
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Theodoros

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Re: IQ250 14 stops DR
« Reply #26 on: February 08, 2014, 12:42:37 pm »

let me translate... "usable DR" is a subset of "DR that sensor records" where photon noise dominates and bigger dies of MFD cameras have an advantage just because of that, move deeper where readout associated noise dominates and you conveniently exclude that from your "DR"... card cheaters used to be beaten with candelabras, so that you know.
Bad translation…  ??? "usable DR" simply means what is left after you process an image so that the print has a realistic look… Although it has a different meaning to individuals, everybody can understand the extremes of what a "dull" print is and what a "punchy" print is… "CCDs have more usable DR" simply means that one can retain much more of the recorded DR and still be able to have a "realistic" look…  8)
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eronald

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Re: IQ250 14 stops DR
« Reply #27 on: February 08, 2014, 02:37:37 pm »

No they are not! …Remember the files Sinn posted in comparison to his Credo back… It's the same with my D800E and (less so) with my D4… Low lights does keep information but colour falls apart developing colour casts… CCDs are much better when you "dig" for info in the darks… That's why I insist on the difference between DR that sensor records and usable DR… OTOH, you compare things while you insist to use LR to develop P45+ files… nobody else does that!

The dSLRs have worse (less orthogonal) CFAs than the backs, so you lose color precision faster in recorded bits.
But there is no free lunch - to get those better results with the back you will have to expose it more.

Edmund
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: IQ250 14 stops DR
« Reply #28 on: February 08, 2014, 03:46:58 pm »

Hi,

I have seen a few of Sinn's jpegs an about 1500 of my "raws".

The images below from my P45+ and my SL99. The P45% images are down sized to 66% so number of pixels match.

The areas within the boxes were expanded so they cover 20 values in Photoshop, like 20-40 and 220-240. The P45+ images were developed in both C1 (at default settings) and LR 5.3 (at my defaults).

I think it is little difference in the darks. Keep in mind that this comparison takes the size of the sensor fully into account. I am pretty sure that at darker exposures the Sony would have some advantage.

Phase One says that the advantage of the IQ250 over IQ2 series is one stop.

I have tested Capture One but decided to drop it. Periodically I hated it, but my feelings are much more neutral since I decided to drop it.

Best regards
Erik


No they are not! …Remember the files Sinn posted in comparison to his Credo back… It's the same with my D800E and (less so) with my D4… Low lights does keep information but colour falls apart developing colour casts… CCDs are much better when you "dig" for info in the darks… That's why I insist on the difference between DR that sensor records and usable DR… OTOH, you compare things while you insist to use LR to develop P45+ files… nobody else does that!
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BJL

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IQ250 14 stops DR: big sensor advantage in moderately deep shadows
« Reply #29 on: February 08, 2014, 06:21:03 pm »

CCDs are much better ...
Once again you are comparing sensors that different in multiple respects:
- CCD vs active pixel CMOS
- larger vs smaller sensor
- different CFA designs, likely aimed at different priorities of the target users (35mm and MF) as Doug Peterson has nicely discussed in his recent article at this site: Read ...
and sometimes
- different lenses, shutter speeds, effective aperture sizes (affecting out-of-focus and diffraction effects)

Strangely, the same comparison have on occasion been used (even by the same people!) to argue for different conclusions:
- CCD vs CMOS is the sole reason for the difference.
- Format size is sole reason for the difference.

With respect to "usable dynamic range", there are simple physical reasons why a larger sensor with slightly lower engineering dynamic range can still have better handling of shadows at all but extremely deep shadow regions: in moderately deep shadows at low ISO seeds (say two to four stops below mid-tones, maybe five to eights stops below full well exposure) the signal-to-noise ratio is dominated by photon shot noise rather than sensor dark noise, and then the larger sensor has a natural advantage through gathering more photons, whereas engineering DR only looks at sensor dark noise, not shot noise.
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Theodoros

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Re: IQ250 14 stops DR: big sensor advantage in moderately deep shadows
« Reply #30 on: February 08, 2014, 06:37:35 pm »

Once again you are comparing sensors that different in multiple respects:
- CCD vs active pixel CMOS
- larger vs smaller sensor
- different CFA designs, likely aimed at different priorities of the target users (35mm and MF) as Doug Peterson has nicely discussed in his recent article at this site: Read ...
and sometimes
- different lenses, shutter speeds, effective aperture sizes (affecting out-of-focus and diffraction effects)

Strangely, the same comparison have on occasion been used (even by the same people!) to argue for different conclusions:
- CCD vs CMOS is the sole reason for the difference.
- Format size is sole reason for the difference.

With respect to "usable dynamic range", there are simple physical reasons why a larger sensor with slightly lower engineering dynamic range can still have better handling of shadows at all but extremely deep shadow regions: in moderately deep shadows at low ISO seeds (say two to four stops below mid-tones, maybe five to eights stops below full well exposure) the signal-to-noise ratio is dominated by photon shot noise rather than sensor dark noise, and then the larger sensor has a natural advantage through gathering more photons, whereas engineering DR only looks at sensor dark noise, not shot noise.
Try to read the phrase rather than a few words out of it…
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: IQ250 14 stops DR: big sensor advantage in moderately deep shadows
« Reply #31 on: February 09, 2014, 10:53:55 am »

Hi,

"Synn" just tested Capture One's IQ-250 profiles on his Nikon D800 files with good results. That may indicate that camera profiling plays a significant role.

Best regards
Erik


 

Once again you are comparing sensors that different in multiple respects:
- CCD vs active pixel CMOS
- larger vs smaller sensor
- different CFA designs, likely aimed at different priorities of the target users (35mm and MF) as Doug Peterson has nicely discussed in his recent article at this site: Read ...
and sometimes
- different lenses, shutter speeds, effective aperture sizes (affecting out-of-focus and diffraction effects)

Strangely, the same comparison have on occasion been used (even by the same people!) to argue for different conclusions:
- CCD vs CMOS is the sole reason for the difference.
- Format size is sole reason for the difference.

With respect to "usable dynamic range", there are simple physical reasons why a larger sensor with slightly lower engineering dynamic range can still have better handling of shadows at all but extremely deep shadow regions: in moderately deep shadows at low ISO seeds (say two to four stops below mid-tones, maybe five to eights stops below full well exposure) the signal-to-noise ratio is dominated by photon shot noise rather than sensor dark noise, and then the larger sensor has a natural advantage through gathering more photons, whereas engineering DR only looks at sensor dark noise, not shot noise.
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Erik Kaffehr
 

synn

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Re: IQ250 14 stops DR: big sensor advantage in moderately deep shadows
« Reply #32 on: February 09, 2014, 11:08:43 am »

Hi,

"Synn" just tested Capture One's IQ-250 profiles on his Nikon D800 files with good results. That may indicate that camera profiling plays a significant role.

Best regards
Erik


 


Correct. I had a custom style created with a color checker based on the standard generic profile and it looks a lot better after switching the profile to the "IQ 250 flash" profile.

I would still rate the output from the Credo 40 with the Leaf profiles better, but this little trick brings the D800 files closer than it was ever before.
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BJL

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IQ250: color science and design priorities in raw conversion as well as CFAs
« Reply #33 on: February 09, 2014, 11:55:56 am »

"Synn" just tested Capture One's IQ-250 profiles on his Nikon D800 files with good results. That may indicate that camera profiling plays a significant role.
Erik
Skill in color science at all stages does seem to be an important factor too -- though with raw conversion as with CFA design, some differences could be due to different priorities in the design of the raw conversion software. 

I am interested to see how skillful Sony has been in adapting its CFA designs to the different priorities of "larger format" digital cameras.  (Aside: "larger format", because "medium format digital" is a bizarrely inaccurate description of the sensor sizes compared to other digital options!)
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Theodoros

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Re: IQ250 14 stops DR: big sensor advantage in moderately deep shadows
« Reply #34 on: February 09, 2014, 12:14:32 pm »

Hi,

"Synn" just tested Capture One's IQ-250 profiles on his Nikon D800 files with good results. That may indicate that camera profiling plays a significant role.

Best regards
Erik


 

It seems that my suggestions work a bit… I wonder why you don't try some I've suggested to you Erik...
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ErikKaffehr

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Hi,

I guess we have to wait and see. Synn's posting indicates that profiles play a major roll. It is odd that he finds that a profile built for a Phase One IQ-250 using a new sensor from Sony gives a better image than one that has been optimised for the D800.

Anyway, it may be that profiling may explain a good part of the purported difference between CCD and CMOS.

I guess that in a couple of days we will find out more. I also guess that Phase One's profiles for the IQ-250 will be tuned when more images have been analysed.

Now, we may keep in mind that we have three vendors of sensors in MFD:

- TrueSense, the company formerly known as Kodak delivering sensors to Leica, Pentax and Hasselblad
- DALSA, delivering sensors to Phase One and Leaf
- Sony delivering to Phase One, Hasselblad, Pentax and perhaps also Leica (?)

Each company may offer different CFA designs?

Best regards
Erik

Skill in color science at all stages does seem to be an important factor too -- though with raw conversion as with CFA design, some differences could be due to different priorities in the design of the raw conversion software. 

I am interested to see how skillful Sony has been in adapting its CFA designs to the different priorities of "larger format" digital cameras.  (Aside: "larger format", because "medium format digital" is a bizarrely inaccurate description of the sensor sizes compared to other digital options!)
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Theodoros

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Hi,

I guess we have to wait and see. Synn's posting indicates that profiles play a major roll. It is odd that he finds that a profile built for a Phase One IQ-250 using a new sensor from Sony gives a better image than one that has been optimised for the D800.

Anyway, it may be that profiling may explain a good part of the purported difference between CCD and CMOS.

I guess that in a couple of days we will find out more. I also guess that Phase One's profiles for the IQ-250 will be tuned when more images have been analysed.

Now, we may keep in mind that we have three vendors of sensors in MFD:


- TrueSense, the company formerly known as Kodak delivering sensors to Leica, Pentax and Hasselblad
- DALSA, delivering sensors to Phase One and Leaf
- Sony delivering to Phase One, Hasselblad, Pentax and perhaps also Leica (?)

Each company may offer different CFA designs?

Best regards
Erik

Sinar is using Dalsa sensors on all their current backs… (for some reason all keep forgetting Sinarbacks in this forum). Leica group (Leica and Sinar) have sensors made from three suppliers, Kodak, Dalsa and Cmosis.
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Vladimirovich

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Hi,

I guess we have to wait and see. Synn's posting indicates that profiles play a major roll. It is odd that he finds that a profile built for a Phase One IQ-250 using a new sensor from Sony gives a better image than one that has been optimised for the D800.


who says they were optimized ? why do you think they were interested to provide the best possible for D800 which somewhat eats into their market   ;D
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eronald

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who says they were optimized ? why do you think they were interested to provide the best possible for D800 which somewhat eats into their market   ;D

On the other hand, no mainstream converter seems to be able to get the best out of Nikon files.
What a pity for Nikon :)

Edmund
« Last Edit: February 09, 2014, 01:48:03 pm by eronald »
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BJL

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Erik, two slight modifications to your list, an some comets in italics:
Now, we may keep in mind that we have three vendors of sensors in MFD:

- TrueSense, the company formerly known as Kodak delivering sensors to Leica, Pentax and Hasselblad
- DALSA, delivering sensors to Phase One and Leaf and Hasselblad, for its 60MP backs
- Sony delivering to Phase One, Hasselblad, Pentax and perhaps also Leica (?) (no sign of Sony MF sensors for Leica yet, just speculation)

Each company may offer different CFA designs?
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